Remove xp penalty's from death

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azraelb wrote:

I dont get it... if you dont like the XP penalty, you always could join us in HC.
We dont have a XP penalty here...

Give me another chance to find out how hard I can make facepalms

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goetzjam wrote:

Completely would have given up on certain characters if I lost anything other then XP.

In every APRG ever there is a penalty for death, PoE should be no different.

So in other words, people shouldn't suicide zerg through level 100 but it's perfectly fine if they do it to gain wealth?

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gilrad wrote:

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goetzjam wrote:

Completely would have given up on certain characters if I lost anything other then XP.

In every APRG ever there is a penalty for death, PoE should be no different.

So in other words, people shouldn't suicide zerg through level 100 but it's perfectly fine if they do it to gain wealth?

According to the current system yes. The XP penalty scales in regards to punishment as you gain levels (and hopefully as you build a better character) but there is no way to penalize a player with a gold fee or currency fee like other games have, so GGG adopted an XP penalty, which is completely fair across the board.

Also lets be honest here if you have a shitty character that is somehow gaining wealth but deing, then it is a play style problem.

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goetzjam wrote:

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gilrad wrote:

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goetzjam wrote:

so GGG adopted an XP penalty, which is completely fair across the board.

How would it be fair across the board?
The percentage penalty just doesn't fit. It's fine if a death costs you maybe up to 20 minute playtime, but later on it takes multiple hours to get this exp back. That's called "fair across the board"?

You can die in high levels just as easy as you do in lower levels. I don't feel you should be punished any harder in high-levels. At least not as harsh as it is right now (from 5 minutes to hours).

The thing is: the death penalty makes you play the game in a weird way (my opinion).
You start to playing super carefully, you start to skip bosses you don't know, you start to avoid
risky situations... because if you don't, you may lose ours of your time.

That just shouldn't be... the game should be about fast paced gameplay, trying new things and also try bosses the first time you see them, again, without losing plenty of your invested time.

So... to me, if you die, it NEVER should take you more than 20 minutes to get that lost exp back.

Also they acutally could let the player decide, if he's more interested in wealth or exp.
So maybe you could buy your lost exp back? That's an easy to implement mechanic.
If you die, you can go to a NPC where you can buy that lost exp back (would also be some sort of a currency dump).

So many ways to handle the death penalty in a better way as it is right now!

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How would it be fair across the board?
The percentage penalty just doesn't fit. It's fine if a death costs you maybe up to 20 minute playtime, but later on it takes multiple hours to get this exp back. That's called "fair across the board"?

As you level your character it he\she gets stronger. At higher levels its more punishing at lower levels its more forgiving. As you get better with the game and your character deaths should become less frequent or not at all.

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You can die in high levels just as easy as you do in lower levels. I don't feel you should be punished any harder in high-levels. At least not as harsh as it is right now (from 5 minutes to hours).

You shouldn't die at high levels as easily as you die in low levels. You should have more HP, more damage and more overall surviviability.

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The thing is: the death penalty makes you play the game in a weird way (my opinion).
You start to playing super carefully, you start to skip bosses you don't know, you start to avoid
risky situations... because if you don't, you may lose ours of your time.

We aren't talking about people skipping low level content, this penalty kicks in hard 85 and even harder at 90. At this point most people should be doing 75+ maps.

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That just shouldn't be... the game should be about fast paced gameplay, trying new things and also try bosses the first time you see them, again, without losing plenty of your invested time.

You are suggesting most people die to bosses, thread was created because desync is an issue. I don't know of any bosses that force you out of sync, some cause visual lag. As far as faced paced, that depends on your build.

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So... to me, if you die, it NEVER should take you more than 20 minutes to get that lost exp back.

Why shouldn't it take you that long or longer?

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Also they acutally could let the player decide, if he's more interested in wealth or exp.
So maybe you could buy your lost exp back? That's an easy to implement mechanic.
If you die, you can go to a NPC where you can buy that lost exp back (would also be some sort of a currency dump).

This would be an illusion of an option, assuming it wasn't the cost of an exalt or more the option to buy back your XP would always be better. I suggested a recovery mechanic to pickup your body, but that also means if you map and die in a party you lost all the XP and can't recover it.

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So many ways to handle the death penalty in a better way as it is right now!

The best way is to not die in the first place! Or second! Or third! Instead people come here and complain just because they see level 100 people and want to reach that but don't because they either a) don't plan properly or b) play without caution.

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goetzjam wrote:

As you level your character it he\she gets stronger. At higher levels its more punishing at lower levels its more forgiving. As you get better with the game and your character deaths should become less frequent or not at all.

You shouldn't die at high levels as easily as you die in low levels. You should have more HP, more damage and more overall surviviability.

As you level character deaths become more frequent because the content gets more difficult, especially if you want to add enough affixes to high maps to sustain a 77+ pool. It's completely brutal for solo play because the cost isn't distributed.

I can level to 80+ without a single death. In fact it's not easy at all to die at low levels, unless you're taking risks to compete in races.

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goetzjam wrote:

We aren't talking about people skipping low level content, this penalty kicks in hard 85 and even harder at 90. At this point most people should be doing 75+ maps.

The 10% penalty is fine at 85 and 90. But it gets completely retarded at 95-100, when you're literally losing MINIMUM 10 exalts per death at 95 (many many more at 99) and at least 3.5 hours of XP progression at 95 (DAYS at 99). Beyond 95 the penalty becomes even more utterly retarded and promotes extremely boring gameplay and character development, one key logout macros/ foot pedals, and incentivizes skipping content. Then at 100 the pendulum swings waay out in the opposite direction and you respec to roll your face against the keyboard retarded DPS because the penalty disappears? It's silly.

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goetzjam wrote:

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wftico wrote:

So... to me, if you die, it NEVER should take you more than 20 minutes to get that lost exp back.

Why shouldn't it take you that long or longer?

You have to think about this in relation to player motivation and incentives. When a -10%XP penalty eliminates a great enough quantity of progression time, it ceases being a penalty because players forego XP progression and focus on other progression vectors. As it stands now, the vast majority of players stop trying to level beyond a target goal (generally even lower than level 90), and focus entirely on wealth farming. At this stage, when they've converted to IIR/IIQ farm mode or max mobility/dps and sell 77/78 maps farm mode, the added death penalty does nothing. Are we actually trying to penalize death with the added death penalty, or simply use it to gate level progression and goal setting?

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As you level character deaths become more frequent because the content gets more difficult, especially if you want to add enough affixes to high maps to sustain a 77+ pool. It's completely brutal for solo play because the cost isn't distributed.

Are you suggesting that at level 85 or 90 you can't do a simple 75-78 map with packsize + 1 mod? I think it has been proven pretty well you don't need to roll maps with stupid mods to sustain a pool, in addition if you can't do the more difficult mods then you probably should roll them in the first place and stick to the easy trans+alt+regal when necessary. Saying you have to roll hard mods to sustain is completely wrong. You are essentially suggesting that players know they will die when they roll these mods and choose to run them, that is a mistake of the player, not the game or XP penalty. Had they been smarter players they would run 1 level lower maps with easier mods and sell the higher ones until they can do them.

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I can level to 80+ without a single death. In fact it's not easy at all to die at low levels, unless you're taking risks to compete in races.

Grats, that means as a player your skill has increased beyond the average player.

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The 10% penalty is fine at 85 and 90. But it gets completely retarded at 95-100, when you're literally losing MINIMUM 10 exalts per death at 95 (many many more at 99) and at least 3.5 hours of XP progression at 95 (DAYS at 99). Beyond 95 the penalty becomes even more utterly retarded and promotes extremely boring gameplay and character development, one key logout macros/ foot pedals, and incentivizes skipping content. Then at 100 the pendulum swings waay out in the opposite direction and you respec to roll your face against the keyboard retarded DPS because the penalty disappears? It's silly.

If you reach level 100 you earned the right not to give a fuck about death anymore. However, according to you its basically impossible to get to level 100, therefore it shouldn't matter. If you are level 95 and deing on a regular basis (not even because desync, you don't mention this at all) it is completely your fault.

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You have to think about this in relation to player motivation and incentives. When a -10%XP penalty eliminates a great enough quantity of progression time, it ceases being a penalty because players forego XP progression and focus on other progression vectors. As it stands now, the vast majority of players stop trying to level beyond a target goal (generally even lower than level 90), and focus entirely on wealth farming. At this stage, the death penalty does nothing. Are we actually trying to penalize death with the death penalty, or simply use it to gate level progression and goal setting?

It limits some goals, but you can't stop wealth progression otherwise players that might be struggling to level because of gear would never be able to progress further. Level progression is a goal set individually, GGG can't tell you get to level 100, or level 95, or level 80, whatever your goal may be. That 10% penalty is as true at level 60 as it is at level 90 and while they can progress the character on other fronts, unless they progress their playstyle\defenses\awareness\ect they won't ever progress on the level front.

Removing the penality creates a freebie for anyone and everyone. Considering this game doesn't give you much for free, just gems, shitty rares, ect it doesn't fit the whole theme of an hardcore ARPG game when you want to turn leveling into a freebie. No prestige in hitting level 100 if the penalty is removed.

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Vhlad wrote:

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goetzjam wrote:

If you don't want to level (progress further) then the natural penalty is the inability to improve your character further. That is the downside to death.

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goetzjam wrote:

A recovery mechanic if you die to gain some XP by clicking your body would be nice, but at the same time if you die in a 6 party map your not going to recover XP.

Given the current efficiency of grouping (distributed map cost + aura stacking + additional bodies/targets for enemies + debuffs/curses/status ailments + CC + 1:0.6 scaling + designated iir/iiq culler), I wouldn't view it as a deal breaker to be unable to partake in the recovery mechanic in a full group.

Sorry wasnt at my computer all day, but the is an absolute +1 . Right on, the first part at least. dont really have an opinion on the clicking your body, but suggestions are how things get done!

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wftico wrote:

How would it be fair across the board?
The percentage penalty just doesn't fit. It's fine if a death costs you maybe up to 20 minute playtime, but later on it takes multiple hours to get this exp back. That's called "fair across the board"?

You can die in high levels just as easy as you do in lower levels. I don't feel you should be punished any harder in high-levels. At least not as harsh as it is right now (from 5 minutes to hours).

The thing is: the death penalty makes you play the game in a weird way (my opinion).
You start to playing super carefully, you start to skip bosses you don't know, you start to avoid
risky situations... because if you don't, you may lose ours of your time.

That just shouldn't be... the game should be about fast paced gameplay, trying new things and also try bosses the first time you see them, again, without losing plenty of your invested time.

So... to me, if you die, it NEVER should take you more than 20 minutes to get that lost exp back.

Also they acutally could let the player decide, if he's more interested in wealth or exp.
So maybe you could buy your lost exp back? That's an easy to implement mechanic.
If you die, you can go to a NPC where you can buy that lost exp back (would also be some sort of a currency dump).

So many ways to handle the death penalty in a better way as it is right now!

Very nice points, and welcome to the thread! Keep it coming guys