[3.0] Raider Elemental Dual Wield Cyclone Harvester | 230k+ DPS

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Tommie_Sjukskriven wrote:

Your damage is 40k, this was changed in 1.0.0(iirc, please correct to appropriate patch) so there is no need to double it, your tooltip is correct

So tell me why I kill 2x faster than guy with 40k Dual Strike?

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O2lsie wrote:

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Tommie_Sjukskriven wrote:

Your damage is 40k, this was changed in 1.0.0(iirc, please correct to appropriate patch) so there is no need to double it, your tooltip is correct

So tell me why I kill 2x faster than guy with 40k Dual Strike?

Don't look at tooltip at all, cyclone's effective dps is based of your movementspeed, which isn't included in tooltip however cyclone is more effective than dual strike.

My old duelist had 100k dual strike+ melee splash with woe, and my marauder had 44k tooltip cyclone to start with and yet much faster clearing as its an aoe skill itself, now I got 140k pve, clears way faster than dual strike but not due to tooltip

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O2lsie wrote:

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Tommie_Sjukskriven wrote:

Your damage is 40k, this was changed in 1.0.0(iirc, please correct to appropriate patch) so there is no need to double it, your tooltip is correct

So tell me why I kill 2x faster than guy with 40k Dual Strike?

Tooltips across different AOE skills are not comparable to each other due to the behavior of the skills. The tooltip is always just a single instance of a single attack and doesn't take into account what happens next. Cyclone, Spectral Throw, and any skill attached to Chain tend to be DPS over-performers. You can generally compare single target across the board, and AOE DPS only for the same skills.

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Asidra wrote:

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O2lsie wrote:

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Tommie_Sjukskriven wrote:

Your damage is 40k, this was changed in 1.0.0(iirc, please correct to appropriate patch) so there is no need to double it, your tooltip is correct

So tell me why I kill 2x faster than guy with 40k Dual Strike?

Tooltips across different AOE skills are not comparable to each other due to the behavior of the skills. The tooltip is always just a single instance of a single attack and doesn't take into account what happens next. Cyclone, Spectral Throw, and any skill attached to Chain tend to be DPS over-performers. You can generally compare single target AOE across the board, and AOE DPS only for the same skills.

I know, that's why I wrote "kill 2x faster" not clear. I've tested it again at Dominus and as I said, DPS is x2. I had 24k Cyclone tooltip and 48k Dual Strike tooltip, in both cases second form Dominus died after 7-8 seconds. Of course I've changed Melee Damage on Full life and Daresso's Salute, to make this test trustworthy. I can upload videos if you still want proof.

I think you are misunderstanding the point. You are still trying to compare Cyclone and Dual Strike DPS. If your Cyclone tooltip is 24k dps, it's 24k. Because of the way Cyclone performs with it's Spins and Attacks as it moves through it's attack range, it outperforms it's tooltip DPS a great deal. But it's not a 48k Cyclone.

For instance, I have a Split Arrow/Chain at 12k DPS. In essence, what you are doing would be like me saying I have 36k DPS Split Arr5ow because each of those hits Chains 2 more times for a total of hits. But I don't. I have a 12k Split/Chain. Just like you have a 24k Cyclone. The fact your 24k Cyclone performs about equal to your 48k Dual Strike doesn't mean it's under-reporting it's DPS, it's because of the innate differences in how the skills perform. Comparing across tooltips is apples to oranges.

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Asidra wrote:

I think you are misunderstanding the point. You are still trying to compare Cyclone and Dual Strike DPS. If your Cyclone tooltip is 24k dps, it's 24k. Because of the way Cyclone performs with it's Spins and Attacks as it moves through it's attack range, it outperforms it's tooltip DPS a great deal. But it's not a 48k Cyclone.

For instance, I have a Split Arrow/Chain at 12k DPS. In essence, what you are doing would be like me saying I have 36k DPS Split Arr5ow because each of those hits Chains 2 more times for a total of hits. But I don't. I have a 12k Split/Chain. Just like you have a 24k Cyclone. The fact your 24k Cyclone performs about equal to your 48k Dual Strike doesn't mean it's under-reporting it's DPS, it's because of the innate differences in how the skills perform. Comparing across tooltips is apples to oranges.

OP read this though

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Asidra wrote:

I think you are misunderstanding the point. You are still trying to compare Cyclone and Dual Strike DPS. If your Cyclone tooltip is 24k dps, it's 24k. Because of the way Cyclone performs with it's Spins and Attacks as it moves through it's attack range, it outperforms it's tooltip DPS a great deal. But it's not a 48k Cyclone.

For instance, I have a Split Arrow/Chain at 12k DPS. In essence, what you are doing would be like me saying I have 36k DPS Split Arr5ow because each of those hits Chains 2 more times for a total of hits. But I don't. I have a 12k Split/Chain. Just like you have a 24k Cyclone. The fact your 24k Cyclone performs about equal to your 48k Dual Strike doesn't mean it's under-reporting it's DPS, it's because of the innate differences in how the skills perform. Comparing across tooltips is apples to oranges.

Of course 24k Cyclone isn't 48k Cyclone, but it deal 48k DPS if you attack continuously and in my opinion tooltip is under-reporting Cyclone DPS.

Nevermind... I know it deal 2x tooltip DPS and that's enough. I'll change description to avoid more discussions.

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O2lsie wrote:

Of course 24k Cyclone isn't 48k Cyclone, but it deal 48k DPS if you attack continuously and in my opinion tooltip is under-reporting Cyclone DPS.

Nevermind... I know it deal 2x tooltip DPS and that's enough. I'll change description to avoid more discussions.

Dude...no, it does not. They already corrected the issue where the tooltip didn't account for the second attack per spin. But Cyclone's spin speed is based on your attack speed. So if you attack really fast and move really slow it will actually do way more damage and there is no way for any tooltip to account for this. Technically, if you had the exact same DPS, but got to that number by hitting really hard while attacking slowly, your cyclone could have the exact same DPS while actually doing far less damage. For Cyclone, attack speed ends up moving true damage done, given a fixed movement speed and still target, non-linearly.

The only thing that may be accurate is that in your current state, your Cyclone kills about as fast as your Dual Striker did when it had 48k DPS. But trying to put an exact number on it (you seem to have double stuck in your brain) is 100% wrong. It does not deal 2x the tooltip DPS - and having people think that their cyclone's will deal double their tooltip DPS is a disservice - it will always be more or less based on the situation.

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Asidra wrote:

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O2lsie wrote:

Of course 24k Cyclone isn't 48k Cyclone, but it deal 48k DPS if you attack continuously and in my opinion tooltip is under-reporting Cyclone DPS.

Nevermind... I know it deal 2x tooltip DPS and that's enough. I'll change description to avoid more discussions.

Dude...no, it does not. They already corrected the issue where the tooltip didn't account for the second attack per spin. But Cyclone's spin speed is based on your attack speed. So if you attack really fast and move really slow it will actually do way more damage and there is no way for any tooltip to account for this. Technically, if you had the exact same DPS, but got to that number by hitting really hard while attacking slowly, your cyclone could have the exact same DPS while actually doing far less damage. For Cyclone, attack speed ends up moving true damage done, given a fixed movement speed and still target, non-linearly.

The only thing that may be accurate is that in your current state, your Cyclone kills about as fast as your Dual Striker did when it had 48k DPS. But trying to put an exact number on it (you seem to have double stuck in your brain) is 100% wrong. It does not deal 2x the tooltip DPS - and having people think that their cyclone's will deal double their tooltip DPS is a disservice - it will always be more or less based on the situation.

Another good response, sadly op ignores them

Tooltip dual strike 48k dps
Tooltip cyclone 24k dps

Both kill equally quickly

All we know from this is that
1) the tooltip isn't able to correctly give the damage output of these 2 skills
2) cyclone appears to have twice the "damage effectiveness" of dual strike

Possible conclusions based solely of these observations:

1) Cyclone's "real" dps is actually twice the tooltip - 48k, dual strike's is also 48k.
2) Dual strike's "real" dps is actually half the tooltip - 24k, cyclone's is also 24k.
3) Both cyclone and dual strike have exactly 295 million "real" dps
4) Both cyclone and dual strike have exactly 1.2k "real" dps

The point is that it's pointless to directly compare dps values of different skills, and worse to automatically assume case 1) - that the higher damage option is always right. Without further testing it's hard to conclude that your "real" dps is twice the tooltip, it would theoretically be equally plausible that cyclone's tooltip is accurate and dual strike's is just twice what is should be (unlikely I'd say given the mechanics of cyclone but it's the point that matters). People compare the damage effectiveness of builds against other builds using the same skill, not completely different builds.

So yeah, use the tooltip, it's the only way to get a proper feel to the build. Comparing it to some arbitrary other skill and cherry-picking a higher dps value from tooltip comparisons wont win you any friends :P

Good to see you've changed the title anyway, build seems solid (Y)