Tournament name for upcoming team tourney

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Oats_PT wrote:

On the low turnout on SC LLD tourney:
The LLD tourney started before the ambush league ended. I think the number of SC LLDErs doubled after it ended! And just the other day there was some 6v6 going on, although I missed it :(
That's one of the reasons why I want the current tourney to end as soon as possible. in the next tourney there will be a huge number of participants from the SC LLD community, I guarantee it :)

Sounds good. Before we begin season 2 though, there will be a teams tournament due to high request from players. Inserting a tourney or two, here and there, before beginning season 2 is a great idea because the pvp seasons take atleast a month and so they are usually better to do near the end of a league (when people are getting bored with pve).

Looking forward to all that though. Make sure to tell people to sign up on the website and to at the very least check back on it twice a week.

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Oats_PT wrote:

On HLD:
There's just not enough people that HLD. I think I know most HLDers and I'm having a hard time counting over ten people that takes it seriously. That's one of the reasons why I'm taking a break and focusing on LLD

This might be true, but I don't know if not having enough people who take HLD seriously is a reason to not have an HLD tournament.

1. People who don't take it seriously but do some casual Sarn Arena may still be interested in entering. But more importantly,

2. Sometimes people take a certain activity seriously enough that it warrants having a tournaments. But I don't believe it's crazy to think that HLD tournaments may be what motivates more people to start taking it seriously.

Even if it's only like 10 participants all from Omnicient, at least a VOD can be made and uploaded for other players to watch and see what it's like.

GreenDude believes that HLD tournaments may push people away because of inherent balancing issues, and that may be true. But I personally believe the HLD balancing issues are LARGELY overstated. Don't get me wrong - there are definitely problems, I just don't think they're as bad as everyone makes them out to be. Some builds are obviously stronger and easier to faceroll with (flicker, raging spirits), but for the most part every build and every tactic has some sort of corresponding counterplay.

Just think about people like tempallo who are continually pushing for HLD tournaments. He's not an unbeatable PvP god that stomps on everyone with some totally unbalanced OP build or a crazy masochist who thoroughly enjoys getting his ass kicked repeatedly. He's a normal player who enjoys HLD because it's actually not as bad as it's made out to be.

I think a lot of people are already pushed away from HLD because of a premature or preconceived notion that HLD is unbalanced. Just based on personal experience, most of these people have never even tried HLD pvp (I've had multiple guildmates with zero pvp experience tell me how horrible the balancing issues are). OR they have tried it but didn't have good enough gear, got stomped, and blamed it on balancing issues. Of course high level pvp is going to normally require excellent gear; if there is anything with the potential to be PoE's endgame, it's HLD (similar to D2).

TL/DR: I think HLD needs more exposure for people to start taking it seriously and holding even a small tournament with VODs for people to watch on Reddit and the forums would go a long way towards this end.

I think it would be cool if some of the Omnicient (and/or Insomniac) guys would spearhead it since they're the most active in HLD. I think pubbing an HLD tourney in Sarn Arena when it's really active or having Hege talk about it on stream (he streamed HLD PvP last night, which was awesome btw) will draw a larger crowd than some might expect.

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yea i agree that HLD needs more exposure, and pvp vods would definitely help. But there are some problems though.
1. HLD is not very accessible to a lot of players, especially new players. The gear threshold you need to reach to compete even in the slightest sense is very high. you need 100+ exalts to make any build work.

2. Lack of guides/build info. HLD players are very secretive about their skilltree, links and gear. im guilty of this also, i dont share my build because nobody else does. You just cant find any info on a HLD build. I think this mindset/behavior stunts growth of HLD community.

In contrast, there are so many info on LLD. builds, links play style. and best of all, it doesnt cost much to make a LLD character. I didnt want to make this sound like a HLD vs LLD thing but those are my thoughts on it

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Oats_PT wrote:

^
yea i agree that HLD needs more exposure, and pvp vods would definitely help. But there are some problems though.
1. HLD is not very accessible to a lot of players, especially new players. The gear threshold you need to reach to compete even in the slightest sense is very high. you need 100+ exalts to make any build work.

2. Lack of guides/build info. HLD players are very secretive about their skilltree, links and gear. im guilty of this also, i dont share my build because nobody else does. You just cant find any info on a HLD build. I think this mindset/behavior stunts growth of HLD community.

In contrast, there are so many info on LLD. builds, links play style. and best of all, it doesnt cost much to make a LLD character. I didnt want to make this sound like a HLD vs LLD thing but those are my thoughts on it

I completely agree with both points but neither are reasons to not have HLD tournaments. This isn't an HLD vs. LLD thing as much as a 'HLD and LLD' thing (versus just a LLD thing)

While HLD is not accessible to a lot of players, neither are PvE builds that can beat Uber Atziri. Yet those are still popular because there are a lot of wealthy players in this game. If nothing else, it's something to look forward to - a goal of sorts. At any rate, there are definitely enough people with 100+ ex to make HLD tournaments viable. It makes sense that HLD is something people do after they have beaten the high level PvE content multiple times where they should have a decent amount of currency.

Knowledge leads to counters leads to creative strategies leads to growth. Totally agree. This is how it works for builds (people actually enjoy showing off their PvE builds), and that's how it should work for PvP. But obviously the competitive element will encourage people to hide their secrets. A workaround would be a separate thread listing different kinds of builds, how they work, examples of trees, and possible counters (sort of like an HLD guide) [but also refraining from using specific names]. Perhaps it would irk particular players, but it would also help and gladden a lot of struggling pvpers.

EDIT: I'm probably going to stop posting in this thread since it's gotten somewhat far from the OP's intention. Sorry GreenDude!

@Bhaisabh: No that's quite alright. OP is just a strawpoll where people vote. The rest of this thread can continue discussing HLD tourneys. No problemo.

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This might be true, but I don't know if not having enough people who take HLD seriously is a reason to not have an HLD tournament.

Well not having enough people actually does pose a few problems:

->An event with too few sign ups will not allow me to get prizes from Chris like i did for pvp season 1. A strong headcount is what helped acquire those points.

->It cannot be livestreamed and shoutcasted if he event is too small. For the LLD stuff, most of it will be streamed in HD @ 60FPS by Willywonka to our poearena twitch channel and then shoutcasted by the both of us. This is worth Willy's time because he enjoys LLD and because we have enough players to be worth him not streaming for a few hours. If an event has too few players or hype, it will not be worth his or my time.

Now that those cold hard facts are out of the way, I can still atleast say this: Does HLD still want an event even without prizes and stream? (I can still record youtube in HD but not livestream). If the answer is yes, then i'm open for discussion. But you will not see a pvp season for HLD anytime soon nor a teams tourney with prizes and everything. It would be impossible to get all the resources together for that.

Nonetheless I am willing to host a one day mini tourney for fun and record the stats on our website. That isn't a problem. As for balance issue in that tourney: Not my problem. I don't want to sound rude but I have warned people that HLD is not as balanced and that the VODs may show HLD in a bad light. But if despite all this, HLDers want this; i will work on it. Poearena is mean't for all levels of pvp not just LLD.

EDIT: on the topic of hidding builds: I can understand this if you have a brand new build and you want to ride the wave while it lasts. For example, if you sign up for pvp season 1 with a brand new 1v1 build. I can understand that you'll keep your build secret and only play it for your ladder matches, to give the best performance possible. Then maybe at the end of the season you can share the build and move to another. Some people have already started sharing their builds on poearena.com and i've been told by players who know nothing about pvp that reading those topics was great. They loved the diversity and the different versions of similar builds. It really helps when guides & builds are made availible to the general public, so HLDers should consider posting in their respective section too.

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GreenDude wrote:

@Bhaisabh: No that's quite alright. OP is just a strawpoll where people vote. The rest of this thread can continue discussing HLD tourneys. No problemo.

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This might be true, but I don't know if not having enough people who take HLD seriously is a reason to not have an HLD tournament.

Well not having enough people actually does pose a few problems

Sorry, I was talking about people who took HLD seriously rather than actual tournament participants. Thank you, though, for shedding light on the issues regarding participation.

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GreenDude wrote:

Does HLD still want an event even without prizes and stream? (I can still record youtube in HD but not livestream). If the answer is yes, then i'm open for discussion. But you will not see a pvp season for HLD anytime soon nor a teams tourney with prizes and everything. It would be impossible to get all the resources together for that.

Nonetheless I am willing to host a one day mini tourney for fun and record the stats on our website. That isn't a problem. As for balance issue in that tourney: Not my problem. I don't want to sound rude but I have warned people that HLD is not as balanced and that the VODs may show HLD in a bad light. But if despite all this, HLDers want this; i will work on it. Poearena is mean't for all levels of pvp not just LLD.

I personally would still want that. We have to start somewhere. Might be worth putting a strawpoll to gauge actual interest.

If VODs show HLD in a bad light, then so be it. But there's no way to be sure before we try :)

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GreenDude wrote:

EDIT: on the topic of hidding builds: I can understand this if you have a brand new build and you want to ride the wave while it lasts. For example, if you sign up for pvp season 1 with a brand new 1v1 build. I can understand that you'll keep your build secret and only play it for your ladder matches, to give the best performance possible. Then maybe at the end of the season you can share the build and move to another. Some people have already started sharing their builds on poearena.com and i've been told by players who know nothing about pvp that reading those topics was great. They loved the diversity and the different versions of similar builds. It really helps when guides & builds are made availible to the general public, so HLDers should consider posting in their respective section too.

I think this is a terrific idea, and if I had a build worth sharing, I would definitely put it up there lol. On a related point, I think doing this would go a long way in creating an environment where people struggling with their PvP builds/strategy would feel welcomed to ask questions or share their trees (and perhaps alleviate the reputation of the HLD community as cold-hearted bastards :D)

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Oats_PT wrote:

And just the other day there was some 6v6 going on, although I missed it :(

It was awesome! We even did a 6v6 ctf but I'm still not sure what happened in that arena ;)

tournament >:D
havn't tried one yet
mmmm i cant wait

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Oats_PT wrote:

On HLD:
There's just not enough people that HLD. I think I know most HLDers and I'm having a hard time counting over ten people that takes it seriously. That's one of the reasons why I'm taking a break and focusing on LLD

On the low turnout on SC LLD tourney:
The LLD tourney started before the ambush league ended. I think the number of SC LLDErs doubled after it ended! And just the other day there was some 6v6 going on, although I missed it :(
That's one of the reasons why I want the current tourney to end as soon as possible. in the next tourney there will be a huge number of participants from the SC LLD community, I guarantee it :)

I know more than 10 for sure, just in my guild

I agree on all Bhaisabh posted about HLD. Its no more unbalanced than LLD, and while some builds may seem overpowered or unbeatable, almost always there's a simple counter to turn the tide or at least give you a better chance. And ye I agree, from what I've seen most whiners are not serous PvPers, and have no interest in finding ways to overcome an obstacle, it simple target and click on you, and if u kill them faster, than your build is OP and needs to be balanced.
An RT user saying crit should be nerfed in PVP,
an accuracy user saying evasion should be nerfed in PVP
and so on...

Before I joined ICU, the HLD scene seemed pretty empty, but now I have a full friend list of various HLD PvPers and almost every day I meet another one. I am pretty sure that at least 20 of the more serious ones would be willing to participate in tourneys.

As for the build sharing, I am not sure where I stand on it. I changed the tree very little to adopt from PvE to PvP, the item and gem changes were a lot more substantial. The changes were a lot faster then they would be, if I just experimented on my own, since I had good guidance, but in truth anyone wanting to give HLD a fair shot can get similar guidance, its just not in the open for anyone to read before trying.