Serious Post: New PvP Gem

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BlackSpite wrote:

@Pianokingx3 as I alluded to later in my post, if that is the case then what is the point of block (for attacks, because spell block works just as it should)? You are saying that is ok for YOUR build to penetrate more than half of someone's max block all the time when there is no counter to it so thats ok for your build, but not ok for max block and tanky builds? And I'm not talking about myself because as I said before I changed my build; so we can focus on the pvp population in general.

The fuck? I'll admit that I am guilty of using a 2H sword build, but thats not the point. The point is that block penetration is the lesser of 2 evils. Would you rather have block penetration removed and see the same old 1h weapon + shield build in PVPers everywhere? Hell no. That creates staleness and reduces innovation for PVP. Its just plain counter intuitive. With RF nerfed to fucking hell, block penetration is the only viable counter for block builds. Every build needs a counter or two at least.

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BlackSpite wrote:

So now to get to the main issue, YOU are saying that you would like or wouldn't mind a block penetration gem on top of the 55% block penetration that you already get from using swords? max block penetration? haha you made me chuckle.

I actually would not mind if they reduced block penetration passives if GGG introduced block penetration gems. I agree with you on the fact that it would not be fair to completely null block. But 55% block reduction is NOT completely nullifying block. With cyclone, I cannot beat anyone who is max block and uses aegis. And I made you chuckle? Great.

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BlackSpite wrote:

So as of now, no one in their right mind should invest in block at all if they are going to take PvP seriously to some extent as we do. At least not now until GGG decides to implement some drastic and needed changes. And considering that there is no dmg scaling or dmg reduction against players for the time being, everyone now should invest in a Saffel shield because at least you can still block spells when they dont crit...gg

The fuck? No one should invest into block? You fucking serious? ONLY ONE TYPE OF PVPER COUNTERS BLOCK, THATS SWORD BUILDS. Block still counters everything else. Like I mentioned earlier, EVERY BUILD NEEDS A COUNTER OR TWO. Stop bitching. As for damage scaling and reduction, Dulla stated you were wrong on that.

Point is casters are looking at this from a half glass empty approach. Casters ingeneral have everything going for them, there isn't a single thing that casters need(ed) more of. If block penetration wasnt a thing, pvp would just be the same thing it is for everyone that isn't using a sword. Its you hitting a guy, him laughing at you while he eventually kills you be it from a few hits or 1hit crit ko. Its a compounded issue, block single handedly ruined pvp. This issue lead to people bandwagoning to sword as their only resolve. Which then lead to people taking acrobatics / phase acrobatics because they were still getting 1hit by all spell types and molten just for attempting to hit someone. This still hasn't solved any issue leading up to it, its just adding layers upon layers to the RNG survival. Even using a sword tempest shield fucks your day up depending on your main skill of choice, as does aegis.

Bottom line is currently the end all be all set up for pvp is


Sword + Heavy strike + dodge

vs

Caster + Critical + Molten + block

vs

Critical dagger because lets face it...its stupid.

This is as stupid as it looks, it really is. Every other option has a counter or pales in comparison to the better options. I.e Heavy strike > other melee skills and crit > non crit caster. Dagger can just do whatever the fuck it wants at all times, because crit multiplier is retardedly powerful.


I said a block penetration gem is lazy and stated why. Echo will also not solve a single issue regarding spell block/damage output issues. If anything it will just make crit users more powerful by giving them more dice rolls to hit/crit. Against tempest shield it will = faster death.

If pvp is to ever become more then RNG dice rolling and stupidity. Real fixes need to be put in place. Not mandatory gems and tree passives you have to take if you want to pvp. Creative item selection,tree useage and good players should be the determining factor in what build is viable and what isnt. Not hard coded broken shit and mechanics that undermine eachother. Then items added constantly along with gems/tree changes to some how temporarily bandaid existing issues so they either A. have more time to work on them or B. because its their only answer to the issue. When C. should be fixing existing things via hard number nerfs,buffs and concidering how these things effect that build + all that surround it/deal with it.

When a fighting game for instance has characters that are imbalanced. Where one character can just win button his/her way through most of the casts options. They dont add more moves/characters to fix it...because thats fucking stupid. They concider all of the cast including the top tiers and tone everything up/down to the best of their ability. Instead of going hey heres a 7th button we added, use that for now...maybe that will help ease the pain.

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MullaXul wrote:

When a fighting game for instance has characters that are imbalanced. Where one character can just win button his/her way through most of the casts options. They dont add more moves/characters to fix it...because thats fucking stupid. They concider all of the cast including the top tiers and tone everything up/down to the best of their ability. Instead of going hey heres a 7th button we added, use that for now...maybe that will help ease the pain.

I actually like the idea of having some extra buttons...QWERT, L-click, R-click, and scroll button just don't cut it.

So much QQ from people who play high level pvp. "RF too OP nerf plz" "Swords OP nerf plz" "(insert here) is too OP nerf plz". I personally prefer low level dueling 1000x better. More balanced, better community, much cheaper and making a build only takes 5 hours vs 2-3 weeks. This allows for a more balanced meta where counters to builds can be made up at a much faster rate.

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MullaXul wrote:

Echo will also not solve a single issue regarding spell block/damage output issues. If anything it will just make crit users more powerful by giving them more dice rolls to hit/crit. Against tempest shield it will = faster death.

I think echo will just work like multistrike where all or no hits crit so it wouldnt even help getting more crits. Just more tempest shield shock stacks and damage.

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BlackSpite wrote:

you can have max block like I did, but if another player's crit chance and multiplier are out the roof, then the crit itself will kill you in 1-2 shots even with max block

That is the main problem with block. Either you block 100% of the damage or you take 100% making the damage taken very spikey.
Also consider stuff like aegis aurora and tempest shield:
The only way to fight properly geared CI with aegis is one shots (unless you have block reduction) as they heal to full es every block.
And with tempest shield dealing damage and potentially shock stacking the opponent 3 out 4 hits that one hit that gets through needs to be really strong for it to be balanced. And if you are unlucky and get 2 of those unblocked hits in a row you can probably get killed.

I find it kinda fun how all the max blockers cry about one shots when they are using the all or nothing mechanic as (often the only) defence.


If they fix block they can also reduce the base crit multiplier (at least for pvp) and reduce the number of remote mines you can place without getting any trap/mine nodes and then maybe the pvp would be more fun.

Block Penetration Gem = Indirect buff for 2h Kaom Builds

..since they don't have block, but can now penetrate shields even more! GG.

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kevshien wrote:

Block Penetration Gem = Indirect buff for 2h Kaom Builds

..since they don't have block, but can now penetrate shields even more! GG.

They would need to compensate for that via tree changes. Entirely removing sword -block nodes from the tree and replacing the entire mechanic with the gem would be a poor idea though. It will already be a default gem socket for every pvp'r which is...also poor. I doubt it will be a block penetration gem anyways but if it were, you can't go substituting the gem as the only means to take this mechanic. The fact axes,maces,staves actually do > or = sword in every way but aps if not for reduction is the reason. Leaving say 25% on the tree inbetween mara/duelist/ranger would make sense. Positioning it strategically to not make taking acrobatics free for sword users would be another plus. This benefits the non sword user and also makes the current sword meta not so cookie cutter and abusable. You'd have to actually use your brain instead of connecting the dots.


As much as I want to see every weapon/spell type and their inherent strengths actually useable in pvp. I don't want to see a block penetration gem. The gem would single handedly make everything viable in one swoop..but mandatory sockets/passives to achieve balance is meh. Block penetration gem will also move crit dagger up a tier of stupidity. Crit dagger seems to just "hide in the shadows" of the balance section. No one really concerns themselves with it, but its really the best overall build in the game and on a (very consistent) dice roll says fuck your hp/es/damage/block/etc..etc.. in 1 hit.

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MullaXul wrote:

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kevshien wrote:

Block Penetration Gem = Indirect buff for 2h Kaom Builds

..since they don't have block, but can now penetrate shields even more! GG.

They would need to compensate for that via tree changes. Entirely removing sword -block nodes from the tree and replacing the entire mechanic with the gem would be a poor idea though. It will already be a default gem socket for every pvp'r which is...also poor. I doubt it will be a block penetration gem anyways but if it were, you can't go substituting the gem as the only means to take this mechanic. The fact axes,maces,staves actually do > or = sword in every way but aps if not for reduction is the reason. Leaving say 25% on the tree inbetween mara/duelist/ranger would make sense. Positioning it strategically to not make taking acrobatics free for sword users would be another plus. This benefits the non sword user and also makes the current sword meta not so cookie cutter and abusable. You'd have to actually use your brain instead of connecting the dots.

word.

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MullaXul wrote:

As much as I want to see every weapon/spell type and their inherent strengths actually useable in pvp. I don't want to see a block penetration gem. The gem would single handedly make everything viable in one swoop..but mandatory sockets/passives to achieve balance is meh. Block penetration gem will also move crit dagger up a tier of stupidity. Crit dagger seems to just "hide in the shadows" of the balance section. No one really concerns themselves with it, but its really the best overall build in the game and on a (very consistent) dice roll says fuck your hp/es/damage/block/etc..etc.. in 1 hit.

well not really, since they'd have to drop 1 gem socket to use block pen which might gimp their damage. also, that'd be useless vs. kaom users who don't rely on block too. At this point it's really too early to speculate since we have no clue what the numbers are(if they do implement block pen gem), but a soft counter vs shielders has always been sought after by non-sword users and I respect that. It'd be fair imo if the block pen gem came some drawbacks so it won't 'single-handedly make every weapon viable', perhaps some damage/ias/cast speed reduction?

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kevshien wrote:

It'd be fair imo if the block pen gem came some drawbacks so it won't 'single-handedly make every weapon viable', perhaps some damage/ias/cast speed reduction?

Whats wrong with making other weapons viable? Why does there need to be a downside to making them competitive? Isn't their downside already the fact that they cannot be used effectively in PVP?

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pianokingx3 wrote:

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kevshien wrote:

It'd be fair imo if the block pen gem came some drawbacks so it won't 'single-handedly make every weapon viable', perhaps some damage/ias/cast speed reduction?

Whats wrong with making other weapons viable? Why does there need to be a downside to making them competitive? Isn't their downside already the fact that they cannot be used effectively in PVP?

Kevshien spent a large amount of currency crafting his '#1 crit sword' - no doubt a choice made because of the sword's unique block reduction nodes. Making other weapons PvP-viable through a block reduction gem would lessen the value of his sword and appeal of his mirror service.