POE WILL BE THE NEW VANGUARD IF THEY DONT CHANGE SHIT UP
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CharanJaydemyr wrote:
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Natharias wrote:
Another rage thread that just doesn't understand anything due to lack of care.
Will these forums ever get better?
Nope. Not until GGG nut up and start locking desync complaint threads, referring to existing and ongoing statements about the matter. There is a 100% probability that any post about desync now is saying nothing new, helps the devs not at all and just fuels the forum into more fighting.<...>
So you are basically saying all the reports about desync from players, the Vaal and Kolesq sync issues, the choke point aggravation issues, the monster speed aggravation issues, etc, etc;
Were all fully understood by GGG to the point that they don't need any more information.
Yet they still never addressed anything Kolesq or Vaal related, choke point or monster speed related but rather added several more areas which aggravate desync even more in Act 3X and new maps, added not only another boss with 1 shot mechanics that can be completely out of sync in animation, audio, visual and location? Then didn't stop there, but actually added an ever pouring supply of sync prone 1 shot spawns to said 1 shot boss fight, and then topped it off by upping the map haste mod (which stacks with monster affix haste and monster aura haste) from 25% to 35%?
I'd say either GGG are completely ignoring the feedback, purposely aggravating desync more or indeed do need more and repeated feedback about the issues.
Casually casual.
Last edited by TheAnuhart#4741 on Feb 14, 2014, 5:32:03 AM
It's way more difficult to correctly predict 20 mobs, that are all at the same time trying to get to you through a series of obstacles and inter-mob-collision avoidance pathfinding.
Make those mobs use whirling blades, teleportation, leap slam or run very very fast, and you have a disaster. Couple it with hamster wheel servers and you have Desync: Champions, where despite 40 - 50ms latency, the game takes half a second to calculate a hit. Using cleave, not cyclone.
However you put it, this prediction model is pure crap. Maybe it would work in a chess match, but not in a fast paced combat environment.
More difficult compared to what? Do you really think monster AI is a computationally intensive process? Well, it's not. And the alternative is: to receiving all of that information from a server. Emphasis on all: the client has to get the information, period, and process it into what you see displayed on the screen. The processing power required graphically far exceeds the relatively simple decision trees of monsters.
In terms of FPS lag, obviously my suggestion has no particular import; however, I think the problem you're describing in D:C is related to hidden pathing, thus is something which could be fixed by a better desync prevention system.
When Stephen Colbert was killed by HYDRA's Project Insight in 2014, the comedy world lost a hero. Since his life model decoy isn't up to the task, please do not mistake my performance as political discussion. I'm just doing what Steve would have wanted.
Last edited by ScrotieMcB#2697 on Feb 14, 2014, 6:21:30 AM
More difficult compared to what? Do you really think monster AI is a computationally intensive process? Well, it's not.
More difficult compared to predicting player location / path. Simply because there are a lot more mobs than players, they use skills that are equivalent to players (all the juicy desyncing ones), and they usually move faster than players
The AI has to properly simulate 10 - 20 mobs on average that are all rushing to you, trying to fit through narrow passages and avoid inter-mob-collision. These computations become exponentially more difficult (lengthy) the more entities you have on the scene (because their paths depend on each other), the more complex the scene layout is and the faster the entities actions are. Multiply this with global or local sources of haste or similar effects that add complexity (bringer of bones, lol).
Yes, mob AI is a computationally really intensive process (probably the most intensive task that is solely the job of the CPU), so much that rendering graphics and AI is done in separate threads, to take advantage of hardware multi-threading, where its available.
When night falls
She cloaks the world
In impenetrable darkness
Last edited by morbo#1824 on Feb 14, 2014, 7:07:08 AM
Punishing the 99.98 percent of us with dysync because you are worried people will exploit is dumb.
Bullshit; actually, it's smart to avoid security holes. Desync is a massive problem, but hackers are a worse problem.
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SL4Y3R wrote:
When you attack faster than the server can even respond, don't expect any improvements to desync as a whole to solve that problem.
Bullshit; actually, I do hope for improvements.
The big problem with desync discussions on these boards is the belief you "can't have your cake and eat it too," which is a principle which only applies to mutually exclusive situations. This causes people to either side with "eat your cake" or "have it," leading to the type of insipid squabble this thread is thus far.
But they're not mutually exclusive. Let me explain by analogy.
Let's say you and I are both taking a class (with very lax plagiarism policies). You're a lot smarter and dependable than I am, so it's agreed that relying on me to provide you with answers to homework has disadvantages; on the other hand, you don't want to have to do more work than you have to. This leaves us with two options:
1. I trust you to provide me with answers, I don't work them out myself at all, and I wait on you to give them to me.
2. You trust me to provide you with answers, you don't work them out yourself at all, and you wait on me to give them to you.
So which of these two choices is the right choice? Consider that meet-ups to exchange answers are intended to happen, but may fall through, making a meet impossible before key deadlines.
If you actually chose one or the other, shame on you, because obviously the correct answer is
3. Each of us works out the answers by themselves, but we consider yours more authoritative than mine if we discover we disagree on something.
The same thing is true with desync. "Not trusting the client" is not synonymous with a client which does none of the work on its own and is utterly dependent upon the server for continuous updates.
So fuck the idea of opening up PoE to additional security risks in order to make the gameplay experience smoother. Also, fuck the idea of not making the gameplay experience smoother. These are not mutually exclusive things.
Of course, if you're familiar with GGG policy on desync, they make it sound like it is have your cake or eat it too. But that's just a convenient excuse they use because it gets them off the hook, and gets the SL4Y3Rs of the world on their side. But it's a bunch of bullshit, and perhaps the only example I can think of where I'm upset with GGG for psychologically manipulating its community.
Bottom line: It's about prediction.
When the client predicts properly, there is no desync; therefore, the more often the client predicts properly, the less often desync occurs.
The PoE client virtually never predicts properly, because GGG has thoroughly neglected the client prediction system in favor of relying heavily on server-taxing resyncs.
The only thing that's truly difficult to predict is the actions of players. In a single-player situation, this is information the client possesses before the server. Therefore, the client is in a position to predict gamestate in a way which matches the server answer the vast majority of the time.
You can't do what you suggest because you are giving so much information to the client that hackers can abuse it to start making more offensive hacks. For example, if you started giving the client the ability to predict things like movement, health, etc. then you could make a speedhack/godmode hack/etc.
Another rage thread that just doesn't understand anything due to lack of care.
Will these forums ever get better?
I desynced twice today within about 1 hour of playing, moving more or less not at all, playing a witch with flameblast. Both times both my char and the blast were not where I clicked them to be.
So what is there to understand? That it takes time?
You don't seem to understand anything either. You desynced all the time in that hour, it's just two times where you noticed it.
I seriosly doubt that 'better prediction algorithms' would solve the desync issue, with PoE architecture in this current state.
I'm quoting an excellent explanation of MrMisterMissedHer in another thread (bold is mine);
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MrMisterMissedHer wrote:
Spoiler
Yay, desync discussions again.
Firstly, you are delusional if you think prediction to the extent that PoE uses can work. Utterly laughable concept in a game (unless, of course, you're okay with the mechanics fundamentally suffering because of it, which quite a few people seem to be okay with).
Any person that has more than basic knowledge of dynamics and has had to practically deal with this sort of thing knows this. You cannot predict for discontinuous and essentially random state and behaviour.
Games that use prediction to good effect do it to hide latency. The extent of prediction (or at least the governing thresholds for something like resync) in PoE is between 1-2 orders of magnitudes higher than what is typically successful (that is, games tend to do local prediction relative to latency, NOT on the order of seconds).
Considering how error as a result of desync accumulates non-linearly (it can easily be worse than exponential increases, again, due to discontinuities), letting the state go uncorrected for as long as PoE does leads to the wonderful artifacting that we get in PoE.
Prediction is an attempt to make state converge, problem is, it's not provably correct in any sort of general sense and in fact easily causes divergence instead. It is essentially nothing more than hoping it works out.
You can only accurately predict for state without future undetermined factors, this happens to be true of trivial behaviour and low complexity state (eg. walking unobstructed in a straight line), sometimes.
In closing, since GGG are unable or unwilling to implement real fixes, learn to accept PoE's desync or move on. It's not going to change much.
I am glad so many of you responded to my post. It was jot a rage post, I just don't want to see a game lose the majority of its player base only to be carried by the hardcore players who can look passed the technical difficulties for the next 10 years. Its quite obvious to.me based on interviews with Chris that desync can be fixed, but they won't do it for fear of people exploiting it. I just do not think its reasonable to punish all of us in order to prevent possible exploits . I could list some analogies but I am sure everyone understands what I am saying already.
I've heard it all now: don't run too fast, don't jump, don't run around obstacles, don't run past mobs, don't attack too fast...
Menwhile GGG servers are running on hamster wheels.
Solution: permanent temporal chains for everyone, all skills that make you move are made legacy and the only weapons that drop from now on are slow kauri mauls.
So true xD. Most of the people also say that like its writen somewere ( evrywere ) in the game XD my fav posts to laugh at are those.
Scrotie, have you ever seen or played a flicker build? Prediction won't be able to fix that insane *random* at times attacks. You'll go sideways through doors, attack random mobs, all at above 10x/s. That's at or above a good ping.
Prediction won't be able to prevent that suit from desyncing
Flicker would need a force resync because of how the skill works, but for that to work well : GGG needs new servers imho ...
Or at least it needs a partial resync on the location where the player flickers.
SSF is not and will never be a standard for balance, it is not for people entitled to getting more without trading.
Last edited by Fruz#6137 on Feb 14, 2014, 9:35:49 AM
