One Week Nemesis Race Infographic

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Langes01x wrote:

I don't expect anyone on the development team will read my opinion on the Evasion vs Armor debate that is currently being waged in this thread by many others however I believe that the reason people are so inclined to take Iron Reflexes is the low passive cost for Scion, Duelist and Ranger (who together make up 60% of all level 80+ runners and 50% of all runners).

There's not a lot that could be done to Iron Reflexes that wouldn't anger a sizable portion of the player-base so rather than nerfing Iron Reflexes it would make sense to give players a viable alternative.

Players don't take Acrobatics and the related passives because it takes too many points to grab them all (and there isn't much point in not taking all of them if you do grab Acrobatics for most cases). I'm sure there will be some that would disagree with me however 2-3% extra dodge chance is quite low to warrant spending a passive point to get. If the middle nodes are consolidated into one 10% node or even 2 5% nodes I believe that usage of the Acrobatics and related passives would increase since it would be more cost efficient and thus more useful.

Iron Reflexes doesn't help with reduction of spell damage however Phase Acrobatics does so there would be a reason to take Acrobatics if Phase Acrobatics became easier to reach. Reduction of the cost of the Acrobatics line of passives would also make the shadow a more viable choice for players due to the shadow being the closest class to it (and thus the most likely to actually pick it up).

I agree with Langes01x -- I think Iron Reflexes is such a popular node because it is efficient to get for the Duelist, Scion, and Ranger, it near other helpful nodes, and Armour is a sure thing vs. Evasion which is a gamble. I have long planned to attempt a pure evasion build with Acrobatics as a Shadow or ranger, but have resisted doing so until I can stock and stash gear to make such a build practical beyond Cruel Act 3.

I think that the long-running popularity of Iron Reflexes, Resolute Technique, and Unwavering Stance is due to mainly practical factors:

1) They are located along efficient "highways" on the passive tree which makes them easy to pick up and also near other good/popular nodes

2) They trade risk for certainty: Who cares if you never crit if you always hit? Who cares if you never evade if you never get stunned? Who cares if you lose evasion (chance to avoid damage) if you bolster armour (always mitigate damage)?

-- a. These areas of certainty make a huge difference in survivability,
which is fundamental to Hardcore and Race events, as well as
Standard leagues in Cruel and Merciless difficulties. There is
always a penalty for dying.

-- b. These areas of certainty are also necessary for new(ish) players
and new leagues, where there is no stockpile of fantastic items.

3) They synergize with one another. If you get Iron Reflexes and lose your evasion, then it makes sense to also get Unwavering Stance because you already have lost your evasion. Similarly, if your Dexterity isn't great and not offering you much in the way of evasion/accuracy anyhow, you almost require Resolute Technique if you are a non spellcaster.

4) They are useful in early game and late game, so you can pick them up whenever you want. This is very different from Chaos Flocculation, which requires hefty gear preparedness, and Eldritch Battery, which also requires gear consideration as well as a high enough level to equip gear with substantial intrinsic energy shield. Armour and Life similarly are useful for all levels of characters, but Evasion is at present most useful for low level characters and energy shield for high level characters.


I love this game. But it is a hard game. I love the depth and scope of mechanics and the endless possibilities of the passive skill tree. However, I have only been able to reach level 69 with one character, in Standard, by following one of ZiggyD's build guides. I have looked at many guides and have theory-crafted my own characters as well, and I always run into the same problem: Energy Shield and CI builds are incredibly gear dependent, often times on uniques. Ranged characters are incredibly easier to play for new players or under-geared players.

I'm not sure that the balance would be effective by nerfing the most popular elements of the game -- in my experience at least, the most popular elements are precisely the most popular because they offer you the most reliable ways to avoid death. Other elements should be bolstered to encourage new builds -- if dexterity could perhaps have a slightly greater effect on accuracy and evasion? Or if Evasion itself may offer stun reduction or movement speed, or some other highly coveted stat to make the gamble of building a pure evasion character more enticing?

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t_golgari wrote:

they don't frustrate players.
Dealing with GGG and playing this game is one of the most satisfying things the gaming industry has to offer right now.

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t_golgari wrote:

I think the game is almost perfect, just some tweaks could be done.

^This one is playing the kissing game

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mobutu wrote:

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t_golgari wrote:

they don't frustrate players.
Dealing with GGG and playing this game is one of the most satisfying things the gaming industry has to offer right now.

"

t_golgari wrote:

I think the game is almost perfect, just some tweaks could be done.

^This one is playing the kissing game

Deal with it!

Awesome! Give us the same (with even more stats) for the 4 months leagues!

Shows melee weapon, bow and spectral trow a inbalanced.

Needs buff to spell and ES.

IR clearly needs to be adjusted. Those against it use the argument that many end game builds don't use it or that it is simply a week race. To put this in context I can design a passive that gives you 1000% damage while under the level 30. You can then argue that end game builds will not use this ability. But this doesn't make this silly example less broken. IR in its current form is not broken; but it does give too much value for how easy it is to obtain.

Obviously people will complain if their build relies on IR, but if you're defending IR needs to stay because your build needs it; then it is too strong. There is many ways adjusting it such as making it not with grace. The solution is more by making the rest of the armor or evasion talents within the passive tree much better, not by having one passive that does all you need for non spell damage.

As for scion; it is too flexible without consequences. I don't believe the scion is too overpowered though. Starting with spectral throw, and the stat of spectral throw is an issue. My solution would simply be to create a 3rd starting node for all 6 classes (note that scion has 6), that is behind the regular starting path and moves into the keystones or defensive circle does.
Example: having the ranger have a path to the evasion nodes next to scion.

Obviously this would be a large change, but if scion is to remain as flexible while easily obtaining the best passives; the other classes need to gain easier routes through the passive tree. The other option would be to nerf the scion by making it more difficult to branch out through the edges of the tree.

Just some thoughts; thank you GGG for the data. PLEASEcontinue to share this type of data!

Edit: typo

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Therapist1 wrote:

IR clearly needs to be adjusted.

Obviously people will complain if there build relies on IR, but if you're defending IR needs to stay because your build needs it; then it is too strong.

You are missing the point here.

I use IR, yes. But I don't use it because it is OP or such, because it is not. I already loose the Dex-Bonus I get as a ranger, so my char is somewhat crippled. But (and that's a BIG but!):

IR is the only way for me to play with armor. I don't want to use evasion. And my build does not get anywhere near 200 strength, and I can't afford the gear to get there. So I cannot wear the huge armor pieces, but I can easily wear the evasion gear.

Why would You want to change a node that makes Duelists, Scions and Rangers simply more versatile, less geardependent and cheaper to gear up?

The best thing to do here would be to make evasion usefull in the early and endgame. They tried to do that, but adding life to the nodes doesn't cut it. You need damage mitigation in some form imho.

There are a lot of people like me, who want to play a ranger or duelist or shadow or scion, but with armor. The only way to do this is to use IR. It's a unique node, the only node in the game to provide such thing. And it is easy accessible for all but the shadow. That's why people use it. And that's why I think it should stay as it is.

Btw.: Any change will lead to another Gem or node being the "best thing to do". Which will lead to streamers and nolifers using it over and over. Which will lead toother players trying to do the same. ...rinse and repeat...

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t_golgari wrote:

The best thing to do here would be to make evasion usefull in the early and endgame. They tried to do that, but adding life to the nodes doesn't cut it. You need damage mitigation in some form imho.

I know that some builds can only obtain armor through IR. Your comment here agrees with me; purely removing or making IR useless is not fixing the problem. The issue is the nature of evasion or lack of passives to allow low STR builds to obtain good mitigation. There is many different ways to make flexible builds based on damage; but in terms of mitigation it is limited. If IR is changed; there will also have to be something to help out as the game is balanced around that skill existing for many builds. So you agree with my point, and I agree with yours.

Without IR, or any other way to get really high physical damage mitigation for relatively cheap, crit builds will be dead in hardcore once and forever, since they wont stand a chance vs physical reflect, even if you have Lightning Coil and whatnot.

What amuses me most in this thread is how many people jump on the bandwagon claiming everything that is OK - read not as underpowered as the rest of crap in this game - to be OP.

These must be the same people whose crying made GGG nerf most of their game into the ground.

As the matter of fact, now hardly anyone even plays hc\nemesis anymore, since most builds suck and dont stand a chance there nowadays.

IR offers a unique mechanic (as already mentioned) which makes it so helpful or even important for armor based characters. Mititgating it would not solve the problem (not in the first run).


In my opinion there are 2 basic mechanics or problems which lead to IR overuse:
1) unique mechanic:
As already mentioned, IR has the unique mechanic of converting one defencive value into another(EV to Ar). This allowes more flexibility considering the items people use. I am not talking about the rare items, which can give Ar or EV in a long lasting league like standard or HC. In longterm aspects this does not matter. But IR allowes more flexibility for the choice of unique items (special "unique" stats on those items) which makes IR strong.

Adding other options (for example keystone passives) which grant another form of convertion would lead to more different options for players to build their defence!

2) more strong options with armor
Characters can be based on life or ES and reduce the incoming demage by EV or Armor.

IR grants vast benefits to life/Ar builds as well as ES/Ar builds but life/EV and ES/EV builds dont have that option equaly.
Life/EV chars can use Acrobatics and Phase acrobatics by spending 6 points for it instead of one for IR (I dont mention the way to travel to IR OR acro/ph.acro!).
ES/EV characters do not really have the option of using acro/phase acro because it would lead to a lower survivability for the cost of 6 passive points (50% less ES leads to 50% actual "life"). So ES/EV chars do only have chance to evade instead of evasion and dodge.

Those aspects lead to more survivable build options for armor builds than EV builds and increase the number of IR allocations imo.

Things for GGG to do in my opinion:
1. Introduce other options to convert defences in PoE.
2. Improve the benefits of using the acro/phase acro cluster for life and especially ES characters.(for example reducing the ES loss from Acrobatics and changing the 3/3/2/2% dodge nodes to two 5% dodge nodes)
3. Change the mechanic of EV as it has already been mentioned by adding a demage reduction which is stronger when taking large hits and/or making a part of chance to evade attacks to an additional chance to evade spells.