PvP Feedback

I just played this game n observe 4 2 weeks. I c very big different between physical and spell class.
In diablo 2 it was very balanced about dmg and spell or elemental dmg. But in POE, so many passive increase physical atk and gem support physical.
Ex: - Multistrike 2 times ur melee skill + MORE ATK SPD ( + not increase atkspd )
- More melee physical + physical in full life : MORE ATK DMG
- Base atkspd and atk dmg of melee weapons quite high compare with D2.
- Aura hatred grand 30% cold dmg from % physical. Get more ele dmg from item + weapon ele dmg super high 40%. When critical with ele dmg can cause any ele status like freeze shock ignite. Added to fire dmg base on physical dmg.
- 1 Char can get about 5-6 aura with alpha howl + prism guardian.
- Unique items supported too much for physical build.
- Use skill with low cost mana and have many effects.
- Atk can cause stun effect. I dunno where diablo 2 fastest hit recovery effect here but spell class cant cause sth like that here only physical.
- Bosses and monster dun have any resist physical traits.
- Passive skill r lower distance 2 achieve and high effect. Like atk spd 15% O.O compare highest castspd 6%. Physical atk not only + % physical and add so much effect like + HP + blah blah. + 8% max HP or higher and + life regen by %. It completely overwhelming hit and HP regen full no need flash anymore --> appear righteous fire build for marauder with extremely high dps + high regen just run around and turn around.
- Active skill effect had very large range and many favor like split arrow can shoot 6 arrow even spark cant only shoot 3. I saw a ranger with split arrow max 20 clean map completely fastest 2 totem spark even witch higher lvl and better gears. Life Leech + blood magic ( from item or gem ) + vaal pact made ur character be immortal with end game bosses.
I've never tried but according these factors i thought 200k dps was possible to achieve.
To Ele dmg build:
- Can't get buff from aura or get more ele dmg from item.
- Items + about 20-40% resist and easy 2 max res 75 without purity of ele.
- Very low base dmg. To endgame will be weaker just use 4 farming is very good.
- Very hard to Bosses cause every of them almost resist ele/chaos.
- Low dmg passive : 12% spell or 6%fire/light/cold <<< 6% - 20% physical atk when it bonus with ur own stat + aura bonus.Dun have any active or support gem for MORE SPELL ATK except Pain Attunement ( in low life - lower 35% life ).
- Very high cost mana. Even u had mana leech but bosses still can use skill normally and in pvp i saw no absorb any mana from hit.
- Can only cause ele status in critical like shock, freeze, ignite. Cant cause sth like stun or status for Fastest hit recovery in D2. Skill dont have physical status like stun effect.
About unique item: Very highest support to melee build. U can get very high ARMOR or EVASION but not much ES to comapre with them. Can u get 20k ES but 20k armor is quite easy to achieve with flash.
Most bitchy item r Aegis aurora regen es by 4% armor ( easiest 2 achieve high armor ) n this had no limit time cooldown 4 this. Make who equip this shield can be immortal from hit.
For advise, a high lvl player gonna suggest newbie play Ranger/ marauder/duelist or physical build easy 2 survive and end boss quickly.
Sry guys i'm noob and not much knowledge. This is all i can know this game now. Read and correct me.

Hi, while I do agree that spellls are generally weaker than attacks I do have to correct some of your points.

Multistrike: lowers the dmg per hit significantly (basically a 0.6 multiplier, which is not too significant in PvE but very significant in PvP if the opponent has high armor/uses granites)

Physical on full life: can only be utilized by CI chars. Lifebuilds will have much better options...

Hatred: can also buff Etheral Knives and Bear Traps (spells). You are right though that ele spells have nothing in comparison.

Uniques for physical builds are too good: I assume you mean attack-based chars and are talking about BoR and Soul Taker. Imo there are too many mandatory uniques for casters to make them competitive (you need Shavronnes for low-life and Aegis to easily recharge your ES). Physical attackers will most likely use high-end rare gear (mirrored daggers/swords). I think casters should have more options to deal significant dmg aside from low-life, thus being more approachable for newer players (= ppl who have no shav).

Attack causes stun while spells do not: that is wrong. Spells will also stun. You can observe that for yourself by using Freezing Pulse with LMP/GMP and shoot into a big group of monsters. They will get stunned.

Mobs have no physical resist: wrong, they have armor but it is a pretty low amoount. Players in PvP can have an insane amount of armor though and boost their armor temporarily with a Granite. There is also a physical resist aura called "Determination" and two hardcounter mechanics called block (which can also work against spells but requires more investment) and Evasion which nullifies attackdamage while spells cannot be evaded.

Attacknodes are better: true. Still, some examples you give are wrong. 15% attackspeed has less effect, as attackspeed has a sort of diminishing returns. 15% ias are less effective for a multistrike user who already has 200% ias than for someoone who has 0% ias and does not use Multistrike. Additionally, more items can roll castspeed compared to attackspeed.
I do not understand you point about Righteous Fire, as that is a spell, but maybe I am misunderstanding...

Attackskills are better: Well not exactly. While a well-geared attackbased build can pump out more dmg, all attack-skills (except for Elehit, but that skill sucks now, Viper Strike, Explosive Arrow and in parts Poison Arrow) are scaling with the gear. A lvl 20 Split Arrow gem with a shitty bow will do shitty dmg no matter what support-gems it is linked to, while a lvl 20 Freezing pulse will always do a minimum amount of dmg, because spells scale with the gem-lvl. That leads back to your point of the more effective support-gems. Whilke it is true that the effect of "More melee physical dmg" is significant with good gear and there is no similar(!) gem for spells, there are supports like "Empower" for example, which have a much bigger effect on spells than on most attack-skills.

Your concerns of ele-dmg builds are in part completely wrong too:

No ele dmg from gear: first, this is wrong when talking about elemental attackdamage (like lightning arrow for example). The dmg of ele-attracks is buffed by flat eledmg from gear (x-y light/fire/cold dmg) and x% increased elemental dmg with weapons. If you are talking about spells, it is still wrong, as there are mods on gear like "x% increased spelldmg" or "y% light/fire/cold dmg". Also, there are castspeed-rolls. Plus, you can scale spells with crit in the same way as attacks.

Resistances are too easy to obtain: yes and no. While it is true that you can easily cap your resistances, there are penetration gems for ele-dmg only. Nothing similar exists for physical dmg. The only way to penetrate armor is: more damage.

Hard against bosses: yes and no. Remember, in Diablo 2 (which you put up as the superior way of how eledmg was handled) monsters could be IMMUNE against an element. And while it is true that elemental dmg against bosses is pretty low compared to physical, you can still use the penetratipon gem which has a higher effect the higher the opponents resistances are.

Manacost: agasin, yes and no. The thing is that the favourable caster-classes (witch, templar, shadow, scion) have a much easier access to Intelligence- and mana-nodes which makes them have a much bigger manapool and allows them to sustain more expensive skills. Also, several attack-skills have tremendous manacost too, like Elemental Hit for example.

No stun: even if you repeat this, it is still wrong. Every dmg-dealing ability can stun (unlike in Diablo 2 btw - there were skills that could NOT stun, like Bonespear for example).

Armor vs ES: ES is like life, armor is like physical resistance and has no effect on eledmg for example.

Aegis: while I agree that the ES-regen effect of Aegis is pretty insane, high block can be countered with swords or unblockable dmg-effects like Poison/Explosive arrow, Ground effects, Righteous Fire...

Yes, you can combine all this with 10000 Exalted worth of gear, faceroll everyone until they ragequit, then confuse your gear with an actual accomplishment and masturbate on your wealth/skills... BUT, owning stuff is the point of this game (pun not intended). The more you own the better you are. You might not like such a pure materialistic approach, but this is the truth nonetheless.

Anyways, btt:
I agree with your overal statement that spells are, in general, too weak. They do not fullfil their roll as an automatic newbie-choice. Compare THIS to Diablo 2: If you started fresh you made a Sorc, period. Because she could beat the game without anything. Even with the worst drop-luck. Here, you can get through Cruel but you will most definitely run into serious issues on Merciless without average twink gear, very careful planning or a lot of experience with the game. Spells cannot deal the required damage on their own to enable a fluent gameplay experience. In the arena, where you compete with the top-end of gear (both in LLD and Open), it is even worse. At least for PvP, spells imo need a rework. They need to deal more basedmg and should not have to rely on low-life-crit to be useable.


regards

It would be nice if level 31 gems could be allowed in level 28 pvp if possible. I think it would open up the number and variety of builds quite a bit.

Currently lld seems to be mostly centered around melee builds... sword and shield primarily.

Not sure if leaving out level 31 gems for lld was a conscious decision or it just happened to play out that way with level 28 seeming reasonable for the end of act 2 in closed beta.

The following skills could add a lot of interesting game changes I think;

Discipline
Spell totem
Added chaos
Cast when damage taken
Conc effect
Faster casting
Increased critical strikes
Physical Projectile Attack Damage
Remote mine

Faster attacks and melee phys damage would also be allowed but I didn't include them since melee already seems too OP. :p

Not sure if changing low level dueling to level 31 would be better, or reducing all the gems back down to level 28 would be more appropriate.

Thoughts?

Discipline - agree, es chars need more es, its hard to get
Spell totem - agree, would open up a lot of awesome builds
Added chaos - sure
Cast when damage taken - no way in hell. ppl would put 8x links to this cold snap, molten, raise skellys, rejuv totem, enduring cry, immortal call, frostwall, freeze pulse ect and it would be gayyy
Conc effect - not if spell totem or increased crit or faster casting is bumped down. also molten shell would one shot(it already does). codt+conceffect+molten+coldsnap too good. so many op things.
Faster casting - sure, u casters need more speed
Increased critical strikes - agree crit is hard to come by in lld
Physical Projectile Attack Damage - na, puncture would be wayyyyyyyyy to op
Remote mine - sure
Faster attacks - na, 35% attack speed is hella op especially on pure dmg heavy strike mace builds (plus my char would be even more unstoppable lol)
melee phy dmg - 40% with q20 , agree

also
Determination - 32% armor isnt that much considering armor on the average char is low, agree
Flame Totem - agree
Grace - 395 evasion would help everybody a bit agree
haste - 4% move speed 9% attack and cast speed , sure
artic breath - tricky one that could be hella op with temp chains + ground chill
Purity of Elements - only 12% all res, agree
Ranged Attack Totem - sure
Cast on Critical Strike - na nn barrage quill rain or spec throw cast on crits in lld.
Chain - 50% less damage, sure
Greater Multiple Projectiles - 50% less damage 200% mana multi, sure
Mana Leech - sure
Increased Area of Effect - sure
Increased Burning Damage - again making molten and fireball traps super op so idk
Knockback - worthless sure
Life Leech - hell ya
Reduced Mana - would open up a lot so yea


thats my 2 sense, would take a lot of dev testing to get things just right. ggg needs to start a solid pvp development team and get working on this shizzz. :)

changing low level dueling to 30 so we get 2 more skill points then lowering 31 gems 1 level would do the trick best i think. 2 more skill points is a pretty huge deal.

/edit lvl 30 would mean that would allow us to use Lori's Lantern, Shavronne's Revelation, The Taming, Thief's Torment , Titucius' Span <- (Physical Projectile Attack Damage could be bumped down :P) all would open up so many possibilities

/e remove cast on death :)

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Gjohny wrote:

Cast when damage taken - no way in hell. ppl would put 8x links to this cold snap, molten, raise skellys, rejuv totem, enduring cry, immortal call, frostwall, freeze pulse ect and it would be gayyy
Conc effect - not if spell totem or increased crit or faster casting is bumped down. also molten shell would one shot(it already does). codt+conceffect+molten+coldsnap too good. so many op things.
Cast on Critical Strike - na nn barrage quill rain or spec throw cast on crits in lld.


/e remove cast on death :)

Cast when damage taken isn't really that OP in merc pvp IMO. End charges and immortal call helps a lot for defense on my archer but in no way is it really OP in that circumstance.

Many of the offensive spells can't be used due to tempest shield users that will kill you almost instantly in damage loops. Anyone correct me if I'm wrong but I haven't seen it really abused lately. So the same would hold in lld I'd think.

Molten shell is really only usable in lld with a glass cannon low life, EE setup, otherwise almost all ele spells suck hard there. Low life builds in lld have a lot of weaknesses (low es and chaos damage, no quick hp regen) making the tradeoff quite fair I believe. Therefore I think conc effect should be allowed.

I haven't seen any OP cast on critical strike builds in merc pvp therefore I wouldn't think any good ones could be make in lld as well. Correct me if I'm wrong CoC is really only strong in pve when you have multiple foes to chain off of?

What's not to like about cast on death suicide bomber builds? lol It keeps matches interesting introducing a new meta, and gives casters a needed extra layer of protection in 3v3. :)

you cant argue that CWDT has made it a very passive duel. Also where most characters could not support mana for some skills can now get them free and passively just by triggering a noob-friendly gem. For me it is much more exciting moving strategically around the map getting my endurance charges up and using immortal call when needed.

waiting for big changes in March

the fact is that GGG is letting us understand that he's not clearly interested in pvp. what changed since the beta? nothing. before skill X was op, now skill Y is op. the duel system is the same, there are OP skills and they keep saying that pvp will change.
and also there is the most unbelievable thing that i cant understand: rmt.
we all know that some ppl had rmt'ed all his pvp gear, and i dont believe that ggg hasnt a way to see it. i dont understand nothing of programming, codes etc, but if you just look at trade's log you will see exalts mirrors etc popping out from nothing.
this only makes me think 2 things:

1) ggg doesnt give a fuck about it
and most sad thing
2) without rmt we will have ALMOST that level of gear in maybe 1-2 years? so i dont even bother starting.

sorry for my english but i think the concept that i wanted to point out is understandable.

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tempallo wrote:

the fact is that GGG is letting us understand that he's not clearly interested in pvp. what changed since the beta? nothing. before skill X was op, now skill Y is op. the duel system is the same, there are OP skills and they keep saying that pvp will change.
and also there is the most unbelievable thing that i cant understand: rmt.
we all know that some ppl had rmt'ed all his pvp gear, and i dont believe that ggg hasnt a way to see it. i dont understand nothing of programming, codes etc, but if you just look at trade's log you will see exalts mirrors etc popping out from nothing.
this only makes me think 2 things:

1) ggg doesnt give a fuck about it
and most sad thing
2) without rmt we will have ALMOST that level of gear in maybe 1-2 years? so i dont even bother starting.

sorry for my english but i think the concept that i wanted to point out is understandable.

[Removed by Support]

"

tempallo wrote:

1) ggg doesnt give a fuck about it

obviously they read these threads often for feedback. Example check the post above.
Im sure it not easy and takes a ton of thought/time making pvp good. i bet they havnt released anything yet because a big release will come with great changes.. hopefully :)

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cast on crit would be to strong with increased crit strikes and other gems.. think about my flicker char i made the other week, had 35 crit chance with ungils and was raping full partys in 3v3, with a good crit dagger and increased crit strikes could probably hit 50%+ crit chance. Flicker - Multistrike - Increased Crit strike - Cast on Crit - EK - Blood Magic. all q20, run hatred. instantly get 4 frenzy from guardian death then boom hit 15 times with flicker and add free EK's on crit on top of it. its just an unneeded skill for LLD imo.

Your molten shell on your low life ES char raped me 1500 life 75 fire res in one hit in the 3v3s we did just the other night... adding conc effect is just an unneeded overpowered damage boost for lld. also cast on stun/damage taken + molten shell + cold snap + conc effect on a low life caster would destroy all melees in one hit. i guess with added chaos damage at our level everyone would be forced to use quill rain with added chaos on switch vs low life casters =) but then you could use mini shavs and discipline aura and be good again.. =/ also exmse has a pure life+es freeze pulse caster, we have fought only twice and it was 5-4 each time(iwon). add conc effect to his freeze pulse/molten and he would 5-0 all me all day everyday.

cast on death is gay. you have a good fight with someone to end up killing them with 100 life left then u die instantly to cast on death. it pretty much makes a 3v3 a 2v2. in some cases (copyright's pure cod build).. a 3v3 into a 3v1. -.-

im curious what you mean by a lot of offensive skills cant be used because of tempest shield users. almost everyone uses tempest shield already and it hardly does anything damage wise, only helps bc of the 4% block and blind. the only way real melee counter damage could come from tempest shield is if it was used on a low life redbeak char with added cold/light dmg linked to it i think. and that is only useful against melee with really high attack speed.

cast on damage taken isnt op in hld but in lld where max lvl of gems is lvl 28 and lvl 1 codt supports gems up to level 31 and only has a 440 life req to proc it would be op. my ranger has 1500 life that means it would proc molten, cold snap, a curse, ect 3 times without potting, with pots all that shit would proc 5+ times easy. again all melee would be forced to use a bow vs casters because codt would be proccing op skills for them, we just dont need that crap in lld

we dont want this to become like hld, if ya want an option to use all the skills in the game hld is for that. imho. lld is suppose to be about skill/strategy..knowing when to attack/when to trap/positioning ect..

Rory, your answers to the pvp and balance related questions during the podcast left alot to be desired. I hope you guys really have a plan otherwise I kindly suggest maybe playing the game some so you see where alot of people are coming from. I know you guys put a ton of work into this game and we all appreciate it. I feel alot of us expected after today to have a little more to go on, instead were still idle. Just like every other day, 0 pvp progression.