Chicken Hack and Party Exp Sharing

I originally posted this as league feedback, but figured it might be worthy of a suggestions post, put a decent amount of thought into this stuff


Chicken hack/loader.exe/Party Exp Balance

TLDR: Incoming wall of text. If you are't super into being anti-hack I wouldn't bother reading this...

I'll front load this by saying I spent many many years playing diablo 2 hardcore classic. I finished most ladder seasons in the top 16. (I mention this only to demonstrate that I played a LOT)

So Far I have 2 concerns:

1.) Chicken Hack

I would like to see a 2-3 second timer added to any exit. I know there are a lot of legit players who alt+F4. I did some menu/exit to log in saves myself this last race, so I'm certainly no more pro than anyone else.

I don't have a problem with that, but what I really don't like is chicken hack. It was widely used in Diablo 2 hardcore. While I didn't agree with a lot of what was done in Diablo 3, the exit delay timer was a great idea...although it doesn't have to be excessive. Just long enough to break any auto-exit hack.

*Hack functions by auto-exiting you if you fall below a certain pre-programmed hit-point level*

Really hurts the whole legitimacy of HC. 2-3 seconds is really all of the delay it takes to break this and render it not an issue.

While some may not like this at first, I think the majority of hc players will agree with me in the long run, this is a must if hc is going to have any real integrity as a format.

I'm not saying people are even using any programs like this yet...but give it time and if there isn't an exit delay timer, and they will.
------------------------------------------------------

2.) Loader.exe/Party Exp balance

Back in D2 It finally got to the point that the most effecient way to level was to either solo or 2 player clear full games.

All the top level ladder players got multiple computers or loader programs. They would load characters into a game and then proceed to 1-2 player clear everything.

The same thing will happen in PoE if changes are not made.

The reason this is a problem is because it absolutely destroys the whole social aspect of the game. You can only compete at a high level if you DON'T play with others...that realllly sucks. Part of what makes these types of games fun over time is group play with big groups.

To prevent loader becoming the most efficient method for leveling and to better balance party exp I believe the exp formula and party mechanics might be redone as such:

Exp gain is ALWAYS calculated as if everyone in the party is leveling together as a group....you can never get more than "your fair share." If you separate from the party and solo an area with 6 people also in that area you still only get the same fraction of exp that you would otherwise get if the party stayed together.

You still have to be within a couple of screens of each other to get exp on kills. (I like area wide exp sharing but it does also leave the option of parking characters in the corner and leveling them with no risk...so I can see how some wouldn't like that...so my first stated method above may be better)

With this method you could solo or group within a party, but you couldn't just load 5 lvl 1's into the corner of a map and proceed to clear it and get godly exp.

Granted you would still get an exp boost, but your boost would be no better than a player who is actually running with 6 real players...and you would be disadvantaged because the 6 real players should be killing a lot faster than 1 solo player.

And the whole idea is to disadvantage people who use loader, because if that is the most effective way to play, 80% of the top players will do it, and this will become a very anti-social game at the top of the ladder...and that kind of super sucks....GGG please...help. You are making an amazing game...

If you want the top finishers in your ladders to be legit players and keep the game somewhat social you must re-balance the party exp system and set the mechanics to NOT encourage loader fill ins.

Also, high level characters should NOT get a substantial exp boost from leveling with much lower level characters.

Basically whatever exp gain you would get from leveling with someone your same level, should be the only exp boost you can get regardless of the other party members level. It doesn't get better the lower level your party member(s) are. Otherwise players will just exploit playing with lower level players and eventually follower bot will become a big part of the equation.


I've noticed you guys create systems that naturally battle bots/hacks. So these are the systems I would use to naturally fight these specific exploits/hacks...naturally I'm a noob and you guys are the pros so I don't expect you to adopt my systems or even fully read them...but at least be aware you gotz some major problems comin' down the pike if you take no action on this....


Additionally, a lesser but still important concern is that lower level players take what seems like too big of a penalty for leveling with higher level players.

If I'm level 70 and my friend is level 59 and we are both fully capable of clearing maps, it is frustrating when my friend gets worse exp running with me than he would soloing.

It seems like at a minimum the exp shouldn't be WORSE grouping than soloing. Otherwise friends will be pushed towards playing separately to improve efficiency and that really is not a fun set up for an online multi-player game.

Only being able to efficiently level up together within a close level range doesn't make sense when two players of very distant levels are both capable of clearing end game content. This just serves as a frustrating restriction on which friends can efficiently play together.

It is worth stating that whatever route is the most efficient, no matter how painfully unfun that that route happens to be players will feel compelled to take that route in games like this...

Conclusion:

I like this game a ton. Huge fan. Will continue to play even if this issues are not addressed. I raise these concerns because I like this game, not because I'm frustrated or angry.

<3

I had sent a email in regards to loading about 2-3 months ago to Rory. Although I more empahsized the huge +quantity bonus being the issue though.

Another potential solution:

Upon creation of a map or instance you can raise the difficulty of the instance to players = x if you so desire.


Where x is 1 through 6, but greater or equal to the number of players in your party already (Not less).

In other words you couldn't take a group of 3 players and set it to players = 2 to make it easier. You could however be a solo player and set it to players = 6 to make it harder.

This would put every player on an even playing field. Those players who choose to take on harder situations would be rewarded, and granted ultimately all end-game players would just solo 6 player difficulty, so it would still degenerate into a solo fest....which is kind of sad for a multi-player game.

But, at least it wouldn't turn into may the best loader.exe player win. At least it would be legit and keep everyone on the same page, right now its ultimately going to turn into whoever loads the best wins the most.

I saw it happen in D2...its not like its the worst hack or anything it just makes the game really boring and forces each player who wants to compete to use hacks or spend a small fortune on computers.

Some players are already doing this as well. There's a reason why you will see extremely low level players 1-10 in act2 encampment from time to time. Further, this is also already going on in HC as well. I've seen quite a few conversations in regards to this topic as well taking place in general chat.

"

TEBird wrote:

In regard to what to do to fix the issue with getting worse exp in a party when you are lower level, just make it so that there is a minimum xp cap as long as you are within 10 levels of the highest party member. I.E. party xp cannot be worse than solo xp. Problem solved.

For example if you are getting 10% of a lvl per map solo. You shouldn't get less than 10% of a lvl per map in a 2 player group just beacause your buddy is 5 levels higher level higher than you are.

I'm going to start with this as to me too many points gets lost in the text.

If you are level 1 and I'm level 10.

We go kill level 13 monsters. You would then be getting exp a very very fast rate, even with a minimum cap of only only 10% you would easy be boosted through your level, which can be easy to exploit. Which is why I believe they did this system in the first place.


I believe the key to fixing the party group issue is a hard balance to reach, however, it would start with exp getting split even with people not near you.

1)I believe they should boost the exp range while in a party (currently its about 110% of the mini map)

2)I believe they should increase the HP of monsters while in a party. (Currently you have +50% per player)

3)I believe they should increase the xp % per person due to the increased HP% instead of about 65% per person, it should be closer to 85% now dont forget this is relative to the HP of monsters, so the HP/XP should be near the same.

4)Change the exp exchange while in a party to not give it to the higher level but it gets lost. IE, PlayerA = level 10, PlayerB is level 9. PlayerA gets 50% of the exp, PlayerB gets 46.5% of the exp.
IE PlayerA = 75lvl, PlayerB = 65lvl, PlayerC = 65lvl.
PlayerA gets 33.3%
PlayerB gets 29.4%
PlayerC gets 29.4%
This will help from players getting more than their fair share either way.

"

MrDDT wrote:

"

TEBird wrote:

In regard to what to do to fix the issue with getting worse exp in a party when you are lower level, just make it so that there is a minimum xp cap as long as you are within 10 levels of the highest party member. I.E. party xp cannot be worse than solo xp. Problem solved.

For example if you are getting 10% of a lvl per map solo. You shouldn't get less than 10% of a lvl per map in a 2 player group just beacause your buddy is 5 levels higher level higher than you are.

I'm going to start with this as to me too many points gets lost in the text.

If you are level 1 and I'm level 10.

We go kill level 13 monsters. You would then be getting exp a very very fast rate, even with a minimum cap of only only 10% you would easy be boosted through your level, which can be easy to exploit. Which is why I believe they did this system in the first place.


I believe the key to fixing the party group issue is a hard balance to reach, however, it would start with exp getting split even with people not near you.

1)I believe they should boost the exp range while in a party (currently its about 110% of the mini map)

2)I believe they should increase the HP of monsters while in a party. (Currently you have +50% per player)

3)I believe they should increase the xp % per person due to the increased HP% instead of about 65% per person, it should be closer to 85% now dont forget this is relative to the HP of monsters, so the HP/XP should be near the same.

4)Change the exp exchange while in a party to not give it to the higher level but it gets lost. IE, PlayerA = level 10, PlayerB is level 9. PlayerA gets 50% of the exp, PlayerB gets 46.5% of the exp.
IE PlayerA = 75lvl, PlayerB = 65lvl, PlayerC = 65lvl.
PlayerA gets 33.3%
PlayerB gets 29.4%
PlayerC gets 29.4%
This will help from players getting more than their fair share either way.

Sounds like reasonable propositions. You misunderstand my proposal though on the issue with getting bad exp while partied with a higher level player.

I proposed that you shouldn't get WORSE exp partied than you would solo-ing.

I believe a lvl 1 in a lvl 13 zone would get such teribad exp solo-ing that it wouldn't really be worth it, but I could be wrong. Thus partied my proposal is that said lvl 1 would get the same teri-bad exp.

If this is not the case, then that problem has more to do with not punishing players for being out of their level zone more-so than being partied with a higher level player.

I also believe the xp penalty for being a lower lvl player should stop around 80 or 85. If 2 players who are say 89 ans 86 join, in reality their stats may be very similar. Due to the amount of xp needed to level at that point, I would think that level xp difference should be eliminated.

What would happen if they add a restriction like this: If highest party character level is 7 levels higher than lowest party character level, none gets exp. Or even more, to create a party levels range cap, so that they cannot be in the same party if the difference of levels is higher than 7.

"

TEBird wrote:

"

MrDDT wrote:

snip

Sounds like reasonable propositions. You misunderstand my proposal though on the issue with getting bad exp while partied with a higher level player.

I proposed that you shouldn't get WORSE exp partied than you would solo-ing.

I believe a lvl 1 in a lvl 13 zone would get such teribad exp solo-ing that it wouldn't really be worth it, but I could be wrong. Thus partied my proposal is that said lvl 1 would get the same teri-bad exp.

If this is not the case, then that problem has more to do with not punishing players for being out of their level zone more-so than being partied with a higher level player.

Same is true the other way.

Level 1 with a level 10.
Farming level 4 mobs (great exp solo)
Really great with a level 10 killing everything for you and you getting mass amounts of exp due to the cap of exp being not harsh.
So a level +10 is killing things very fast the -10 player getting mass exp due to the speed of a +10 can kill lower level monsters.

GGG clearly tried to prevent exploiting and powerleveling/boosting players. I think the grouping boosting(solo farming while in a large group away from it) slipped by is all.

definitely a problem that needs to be resolved for long races