Double Dipping - and why it is so powerful

I'm not categorically against "double dipping" but you do make a good case on Ignite and Cleave. If ignite applies resistances twice to the same damage (DOT total damage and DOT tick damage) that doesn't feel right.

Cleave is a trickier situation- I can see why GGG is reluctant to change anything about the skill. It is one of the few melee skills that is fun to use as is, and a lot of that is because it's one of the few (only?) short-range melee skills that's strong enough to be usable. It can't be nerfed without providing an alternative.

The stuff with Shock I'm less convinced. Shock increases damage. That's the whole point of the debuff. I don't see why it's a problem that there is "double dip" potential for something like that.

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SL4Y3R wrote:

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CirePadela wrote:

I'm beginning to suspect that elemental damage was intended to be more powerful. Possibly not on this scale but in general as I'm yet to see much of any incentive to go straight physical damage, especially as it's generally much more difficult to achieve and isn't exactly supported very well.

But if this is actually the case then GGG needs to emphasize that through in game information. They already have the three skill gems and used elements as part of the game's over all look and image so it would easily fit.

physical dmg is the best dmg in the game. Its just a pain to gear for.

Elemental dmg is higher, but you end up losing a lot ti enemy resists. Even a max level curse cant bring enemy res down all the way.

This.

Physical = True DPS

Elemental = Tooltip DPS

I only make physical builds because they are superior in many ways. I laughed when physical nodes were buffed because of how many people play ele builds.

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SL4Y3R wrote:

I personally expect the double dipping of elemental dmg on cleave to be fixed at some point. Mainly because the stat states adds 4-47 lightning dmg, and not adds xx dmg per weapon.

Doesn't need to be fixed, ele cleave is already dead a long time ago. Physical cleave is superior.

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TremorAcePV wrote:

I want to point out one of Ele-cleave's biggest boosts.

Elemental Damage VS Physical Damage.

You can get 3 different types of Elemental damage adding mods on a weapon. One for each type of elemental damage.

Whereas, you can only get 1 physical damage adding mod on a weapon. This makes a huge difference.

I think elemental damage mods should be nerfed accordingly.

Do the math, ele cleave is inferior to physical cleave since long time ago.

In your example for burning damage, you are assuming monsters have 0 resist and you are double cursing them for -100, which is not always the case. Also, how do you know the negative cap is -100, not -60 like it is for players?

Lets say they have 50 resist and you lower it to 10 with a level 11 (-40%) EW, and you hit for 100 fire

Initial hit: 100 x 0.9 = 90, without EW 100 x 0.5 = 50
Burn: 90 x 0.9 = 81, without EW 50 x 0.5 = 25

The burn dmg here is 81% of the original damage, so 19% LESS, not 40% more of 40% more for 96% more.

Compared to the previous effective dps without EW of 25, the increase is that of 224% more (81 / 25 = 3.24)

Lets say they have 80 resist and you lower it to 50 with a level 1 (-30%) EW, and you hit for 100 fire

Initial hit: 100 x 0.5 = 50, without EW 100 x 0.2 = 20
Burn: 50 x 0.5 = 25, without EW 20 x 0.2 = 4

The burn dmg here is 25% of the original damage, so 75% LESS, not 30% more of 30% more for 69% more.

Also, compared to the previous effective dps without EW of 4, the increase is that of 525% more (25 / 4 = 6.25)

So, because of resistance applying twice in the case of burn dmg, you are doing LESS damage than the initial hit in the case of monster resists > 0.

But if you had to compare the effectiveness of -resists, it all depends on the original monster resists and what value it is going to. Going from 50 resist to 10 resist is an overall 224% increase because 90/50 = 1.8, 80% more. But going from 80 resist to 50 resist is an overall 525% increase because 50/20 = 2.5, 150% more, almost double the previous case.




(PS Regarding cleave: Do weapon-only ele increases apply to both weapons as well?)

Yes you're right, I only considered the case where monsters have no base resist. I also have no idea what the negative cap is; I certainly didn't realise it was -60% for players.

Double-cursing is pretty essential if you want to get ridiculous burning dmg. I also didn't consider the case with cleave when you didn't use any auras, for example.

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ancalagon3000 wrote:

(PS Regarding cleave: Do weapon-only ele increases apply to both weapons as well?)

The ones on the individual weapons? No. That would be even more riduclous!

However, if you have two weapons which are the same, then you get twice as much dps with cleave than if you only had one of that weapon.

Ele cleave got obliterated by the 0.11 patch: The nerfs to HP, ES (for EB variants), IF and to EA all was a blow right to the face.

Prior to this ele cleavers with 85% max res, 5k HP, 20k dps and 10+k AR was (too) easy to achieve.
Nowadays it is just easier to gear a decent physical cleaver as you don't need 80+ max resist to survive reflect and have a more compact tree with less wasted nodes.
And cleaving Rain/Taker builds are outright insane.

Like slurms I laughed too when GGG buffed my physical cleaver three patches in a row, when he was decent enough to begin with.

Maybe lightning strike would be good for this. Link chain, ele prolif and cold to fire to convert the Hatred aura.

Or a dual arc totem firetrap Shaman

maybe I missed something, but isnt burn damage 1/3 of overall hit per second ?

also, for better or worse, burn doesnt double dip with fire penetration, which would REALLY make it extremely powerful

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sevenOfDiamonds wrote:

Ele cleave got obliterated by the 0.11 patch: The nerfs to HP, ES (for EB variants), IF and to EA all was a blow right to the face.

Prior to this ele cleavers with 85% max res, 5k HP, 20k dps and 10+k AR was (too) easy to achieve.
Nowadays it is just easier to gear a decent physical cleaver as you don't need 80+ max resist to survive reflect and have a more compact tree with less wasted nodes.
And cleaving Rain/Taker builds are outright insane.

Like slurms I laughed too when GGG buffed my physical cleaver three patches in a row, when he was decent enough to begin with.

I laughed when weapon ele nodes got nerfed on top of all the phys buffs/overall nerfs, that made absolutely no sense. The physical buff was also done in a really bad way, a flat aura and making good weapons possible with mid-tier rolls would have been enough.

Oh well, never finished that ele cleaver because of it, made it a bow build instead.