Bots and Botting
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I apologize if this was posted in the wrong section because this to me feels more like a general discussion post than a true "suggestion" post. This post is in no way, meant to be a rant and was only meant to point out some issues GGG should be very aware of in the coming months before their offical open-beta release. The intention is wholely meant to be good, I promise.
As we know, a not insignificant number of us gamers came from playing that poor excuse of an ARPG known as Diablo 3 (D3) or aka "That Other Game" (TOG). There were obviously many problems with the game (and especially blatant for those of us who played D2 before). One glearing problem (which one might argue can be considered as detrimental as the lack of end-game) was how the economy (and thus the whole game) was basically ruined by botting (specifically gold farming and auction house sniping bots). A video posted by the famous D3 player (world's 1st barbarian who killed Inferno Diablo in hardcore) and theorycrafter Kripparian 2 weeks ago and also a video he just posted a couple hours ago can provide those who were less aware with a decent understanding of the issues. I highly recommend watching both of them. The Gold Problem (June 25th): http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sxh73943YRs Everything About D3 Bots (July 10th): http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RqLhQH2TrX8 One lesson we can learn from Blizzard is that GGG CANNOT afford to be reactive to bots and must be proactive and have very rigorous preventive measures before letting the situation get out of hand like it did in D3. It is true that since GGG is an indie company producing its first (albeit, great) game which isn't a highly anticipated "AAA title" like D3 (this wasn't meant to be a jab in any way; just stating facts), it is less likely to be heavily overrun by farming bots aiming to make a large profit from the game. Couple that with the lack of an auction house will make the whole botting ordeal even less profitable. HOWEVER, if PoE turns out to be a highly successful game that a lot of us really hope it to be, it is very likely for it to also fall prey to the consequences of bot infestation (Runescape, anybody?). It would be bad for us hardcore gamers who genuinely wanted to enjoy an awesome ARPG, and it would be very bad to see such passionate developers who worked extremely hard for the past 5 years not to be able to reap the fruits of their labor (i.e. if the game economy and by extension, the game, is ruined by bots). Yes, I understand the currency system is not gold or another typical currency and that in itself can migitate a good portion of the problem, especially since the currency items are their own gold sink. However, bots can still be EASILY programmed to ONLY pick up Scrolls of Wisdoms, Orbs, (i.e. currency "item" drops) or rares so the potential danger is still very real and we shouldn't take it lightly. Instead of gold-farming bots, they'll simply be scroll/orb-farming bots, that's all. Pindleskin bots in D2 that were programmed to only pick up good items ring any bell? The potential problem isn't simply solved as long as the currency items can still be "picked up" by bots. These are just some issues/things GGG should constantly keep in mind to ensure that PoE is a game gamers can play for the next 5-10 years (as what Chris and team intended it to be). GGG have very likely already thought extensively about these problems, but some things cannot be repeated enough. I apologize for not really having any "solutions" to the problems, but I am sure the development team and also many of you guys are way, way smarter than I am and already have many ideas/possible solutions so it's probably better to let you guys discuss freely. :) Sorry for the long-winded post =/.. but I felt the details were important. Keep up the good work, GGG! Haven't gotten lucky enough to be selected to be in the beta-test or played your game yet, but have been following your game very closely and watching many gameplay videos and can't wait to try it out! At least the longest the rest of us have to wait is 1-2 months (and even if the wait ends up being a bit longer in order for the game to be better, it'll be worth the wait)! :) It should be mandatory for players to have a high level character (88+) and have done the highest level content before they are allowed to post comments about end-game content, end-game balance, and what's "OP" Last edited by Athoy#5214 on Jul 11, 2012, 2:26:39 AM
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Botting can never truly be stopped (in theory). Botting is not a hack, it doesn't need to modify / compromise the program. It mimics user behavior...VBscript.
The way I see it this game is designed to not be bot friendly: randomly generated maps. I have not played yet, maybe someone from beta can comment. AuctionHouse 3 has very little randomization. Outdoor maps are static. Its bleeping retarded....almost as if they made if bot friendly on purpose /tinfoil There should also be server side heuristics that alert GMs about users who are logged in 24/7....and the GM can perform a random check on the player to see if they are a bot. AuctionHouse 3 is made by a 13billion dolalr company and they can't afford to pay 1 guy minimum wage to just sit in the battle net 2.0 chat and ban gold spammers / drop in on bots randomly....what a fail company. If a company really wants to fight botting, it can, and its fairly easy and straightforward. You just need your employees to play the games you design and be proactive. Last edited by fequalma#0757 on Jul 11, 2012, 2:54:54 AM
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There are some factors in PoE that will make botting harder than in D2 or D3.
One is the randomness of the areas. D2 had these too, but bots there had a maphack which is impossible in PoE as far as I know (I think I can dimly remember an old dev post regarding this, but I could be wrong). Then of course the new end-game maps system adds to this randomness, where pretty much not a single aspect of an area is a constant (monster types, layout, required resistances, all random). Also, a bot can't trade for maps that fit the botting-character well. That being said, I don't doubt that there will be bots. After all, they could just run pretty straight forward areas or white (non-magic) maps. Let's hope that the systems in place, and hopefully additional ones being added in the future, will keep bots from becoming a plague. Disregard witches, aquire currency.
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" The botters will go to ridiculous lengths to bot man... its what they do for a living, some of them anyways its not just your typical AHK script written up by some kid, games like runescape, WOW,d2 and d3 get targeted by bot programmers that can get around heavy detection and the problems (inluding the heavy randomisation) that you mention. As long as the loot system is balanced around single player play and GGG sticks with their no auction house policy (trading with the community is completely optional and not required to progress), then botting will have minimal impacts on your average player obviously RMAH 3 has gone in the complete opposite direction to this(the game seems to have been designed around the philosophy of supporting and catering to botters) and now their economy is in a period of hyperinflation. |
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" botters who do it for a living will only target blizzard games...because of the size. a f2p game with small player base...is not a good target. And even if the player base grows, its still f2p, and itemization is not retarded like str/vit/resist and damage...so it will be hard to profit in the item economy and finally botting can be stopped with relatively simple methods. Implement hourly/other frequency captcha based timeouts. Enter captcha or get kicked out of the game. Obviously you make this system unintrusive to not interrupt combat. Botting solved. Edit: well not really solved, but you make the botter's life difficult. you can't stop dedicated botters who do it for a living with rotating shifts ...and employees... with any programmatic methods. the design of the game/items also plays a huge role on whether botting will be profitable. Last edited by fequalma#0757 on Jul 11, 2012, 3:47:37 AM
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can't stop botters.
they are pro! i'm pretty sure there will be a real money trade somewhere in the game but as long as the loot is based on single player and everyone has a chance to get the good gear.. shouldn't be a problem. it's easier for botters to make money out of big games than free online game. |
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" I agree, Blizzard has certainly disappointed a lot of us D2 fans, but also just gamers in general. There were no stat or skill allocation and thus hardly any customizations given to our characters (besides dyes.. rofl). What? Did they think we're too dumb to think and plan out how to build our characters in a video game? Please do us a favor and don't make video games for 8 year olds, Blizzard. (Of course, I don't mean to insult the younger generation of gamers, but you guys get where I was going with my statement) Most of the time I am either playing AuctionHouse 3 or GearCheck 3 since there were no stat/skill allocations, the characters themselves were just innately weak. The whole game's practically all about the gear. When I had a level 90+ Amazon in D2, she was actually powerful even if she didn't have the most powerful items in the game. AH3 was designed to be this way.. besides, how else would Blizzard make profit with such a poorly designed game? Oh wait.. you mean they could've just made a QUALITY game that gamers would love to play and recommend friends to buy it and play it with them instead?? Blizzard wouldn't do that because that would just make way too much sense. " I can see your points and appreciate your foresight about how it'll be very unlikely for bots to successfully farm the end-game content maps. As you've mentioned though, having the bots farming the straight forward areas in the game is a concern. For instance, even if the maps are randomized, the bots can also just be programmed to explore the open areas in an slow, inefficient manner, but perhaps at an easier difficulty of the game. It might take them slightly longer, but as long as it works and nets them a profit. The said bots can be running only for 6-8 hrs per day while the user is sleeping and not 24/7 to avoid detection. Furthermore, since PoE is free to play forever, 1000 accounts can theoretically be made by the same user as long as he/she made the equal number of email addresses. Again, the currency system and randomization of the maps may prevent the bots from working as well as they did in D2 or D3, but as long as they work and can farm a decent amount of currency items over a long period of time. The best hope we have is that their effects are minimal as not to ruin the game economy. The one really good thing that WoW had in its game design (not sure whether it was intentional or not), was the concept of items that "bind on pick up". Because of that, the most important items in the game can't really be farmed by bots. And since the gold in WoW are largely unimportant except for mounts and other minor things, gold farming didn't really ruin the whole game that much. " That's probably true.. but something tells me that botters made a good amount of money from Runescape, also a free online game. A free online game which got immensely popular and successful, I might add. It should be mandatory for players to have a high level character (88+) and have done the highest level content before they are allowed to post comments about end-game content, end-game balance, and what's "OP" Last edited by Athoy#5214 on Jul 11, 2012, 4:10:59 AM
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Sweeping Maid
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" Uhhh.. thank you. Did you think I didn't use the search function and read ALL (yes, I read all) the threads on bots before I posted? Did you think I didn't notice that the only thread that's the most relevant to the issue and had substantial feedback was a thread from August 2011 which didn't include mentioning of the recent economy failures of D3? (Thread: http://www.pathofexile.com/forum/view-thread/3074/highlight/ Most importantly, did you think that I didn't see the thread in which you replied the same search function gimmick without adding an iota of any meaningful, original thought into the conversation? (Thread: http://www.pathofexile.com/forum/view-thread/36584/highlight/) Did you think I was an idiot? Did YOU read the threads on bots and botting before posting in this thread? Edit: Didn't mean to be ill-mannered. Apologies if I came off that way. It can just be frustrating when trying to bring important issues that can potentially be game-breaking to a game the developers have worked hard on for 5 years and have someone linking me to a search function on the "botting" keyword (which I've used and read before creating the initial thread) suggesting that this issue has be thoroughly address (which it really hasn't to a satisfactory degree, imho). Again, this thread was meant to only be helpful to GGG and the PoE game. It should be mandatory for players to have a high level character (88+) and have done the highest level content before they are allowed to post comments about end-game content, end-game balance, and what's "OP" Last edited by Athoy#5214 on Jul 11, 2012, 5:02:11 AM
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Huh. I'm sure, a Dev commented on this a month or 2 ago with good answers...
And yes I read those threads, consider how I also posted in most of those threads(not the recent ones that have popped up with in the last 2 months though). Sweeping Maid Last edited by nzrock#3291 on Jul 11, 2012, 5:07:59 AM
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