One portal and experience penalty... again...

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Sakanabi#6664 wrote:

You mentioned soulsborne games but that's not the only ones.

It's one of the few, very similar examples of a similar mechanic being used, and it's done in a way that's better than PoE has. Souls-like let you continually try bosses, and it's also not difficult, or time consuming to regain souls. You can die on a boss, and just go pick up the souls again each fight. Or you can just grind them afterwards and it doesn't take a long time.

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Sakanabi#6664 wrote:

What about competitive ranked games where you lose not only XP but also delevel ranks?

The difference here, is that it's competitive. PoE isn't competitive. Losing rank or progression in a competitive game makes sense. As there needs to be a way to differentiate the good, from the bad.

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Sakanabi#6664 wrote:

What about all games with checkpoints where you lose whole progress if you die between those checkpoints?

Checkpoints are in many games, and are an example of the game giving you a break, rather than punishing you. A checkpoint is aimed at saving you time. Not having to regrind, or rekill stuff. You MAY have to redo a small section of the game as your punishment. Which is different compared to Xp loss on death, where a single death right now can set you back 5 hours, rather than 5 minutes. The harshness is the issue. There's also a lot of issues with game balance, one-shots, visibility, even network issues that can play into this, and make it far more frustrating for players. I don't think most would be complaining if deaths were infrequent, or the amount negligible. But there's a heavy emphasis on perfect gear, and perfect play in this game, or else you get punished, and that's stressful for most. Not engaging in a fun way. It's also just frustrating to play perfectly for 4 hours, and then die, and lose 4 hours. I, along with many other players just quit when they encounter something like this.

Have you ever played a game like Dragon Age Origins? And forget to save after playing for 4 or 5 hours, die, and end up realizing you just lost hours of progress? That's how most people feel with XP loss on death. I usually just quit in frustration after realizing it, and I may not even want to load the game up again.

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Sakanabi#6664 wrote:

What about all rogue-like games?

These games are specifically balanced with the expectation that you'll frequently die and restart. Most roguelikes do not aim to take away multiple hours of gameplay. And most of the time, hard roguelikes are significantly less popular compared to the light, roguelites. That more people tend to enjoy. Also hinting to the fact that most players don't enjoy playing super punishing games. Exp loss is a very punishing unfun mechanic for a lot people. Hence why almost no games use it anymore.

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Akedomo#3573 wrote:

And most of the time, hard roguelikes are significantly less popular compared to the light, roguelites. That more people tend to enjoy. Also hinting to the fact that most players don't enjoy playing super punishing games.

That doesn't mean hard roguelikes shouldn't exist or that they should be made easier.

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onetruelai#7327 wrote:

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Akedomo#3573 wrote:

And most of the time, hard roguelikes are significantly less popular compared to the light, roguelites. That more people tend to enjoy. Also hinting to the fact that most players don't enjoy playing super punishing games.

That doesn't mean hard roguelikes shouldn't exist or that they should be made easier.

I never said anything like that.

Merely pointed to the fact that less people enjoy them because of how punishing they can be. Having similarly punishing mechanics in PoE doesn't exactly help a lot of people enjoy it.

Roguelikes often include options to make them easier however. Same can be done for PoE. Especially since it is not a roguelike, but rather a game with hundreds of hours of progression. The roguelike aspect is with Hardcore characters, and you can already see how few people like that game-mode.

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Akedomo#3573 wrote:

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onetruelai#7327 wrote:

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Akedomo#3573 wrote:

And most of the time, hard roguelikes are significantly less popular compared to the light, roguelites. That more people tend to enjoy. Also hinting to the fact that most players don't enjoy playing super punishing games.

That doesn't mean hard roguelikes shouldn't exist or that they should be made easier.

I never said anything like that.

Merely pointed to the fact that less people enjoy them because of how punishing they can be. Having similarly punishing mechanics in PoE doesn't exactly help a lot of people enjoy it.

Roguelikes often include options to make them easier however. Same can be done for PoE. Especially since it is not a roguelike, but rather a game with hundreds of hours of progression. The roguelike aspect is with Hardcore characters, and you can already see how few people like that game-mode.

Few people like hardcore because you literally lose your character with all the expensive gear on it (technically it goes to SC but the effect is the same as deleting it). It's not comparable to SC in any way. At the same time a lot of people still like the thrill of XP penalty and 1 portal. They may not be the majority but game development isn't a democracy. If it was every game would look and play the same.

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Sargoth_CZ#3391 wrote:

There is a Cookie Clicker game. You can fuck up all day long and never learn to improve, the game won't punish you, you will still keep going forward.
You might like that game better.

If you keep dying and being stuck on a character level, then that's the exact level where you belong with your skill.
If you want to progress, then improve your character, gameplay, strategy, etc. to progress on next level - This is a concept that works in most games.

I am on level 88 or something. And that's fine. My ego can handle that. There is nothing magical waiting for me at level 100, no need to have that goal.

Are you talking about grinding for 300 hours and only getting 7 divines? Or farming gear for a whole week without finding a single usable piece?

Even if experience loss didn’t exist, you’d still be stuck at your level cap. And let’s be real—the passive tree gives such minimal improvements per level. What’s the harm in giving players 5 more attribute points?

It’s still better than endlessly wasting time!

So far the arguments about the current punishment on death are:









I've played/play a lot of genres and games: MMORPGs, competitive FPS, competitive MOBA, other competitive games, casual/co-op FPS, sandbox, rogue-like, platformer, souls games, even a couple other ARPGs.

PoE is by far the game with the worst design choices I've ever seen. It has basically all the outdated/cheap systems/mechanics combined within a single title:

- Excess RNG
- Artificial endless time sinks
- Artificial friction everywhere
- Zero respect for the player's time
- Severe pushback on death

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onetruelai#7327 wrote:

Few people like hardcore because you literally lose your character with all the expensive gear on it (technically it goes to SC but the effect is the same as deleting it). It's not comparable to SC in any way. At the same time a lot of people still like the thrill of XP penalty and 1 portal. They may not be the majority but game development isn't a democracy. If it was every game would look and play the same.

That's fine. Make it optional.

Or better yet. Lets EMBRACE the fact that PoE 2 is a different game to PoE 1, and doesn't need to copy 85% of the mechanics from that game.

I don't know why people are so stuck on this idea that we need to keep all these mechanics from PoE 1. PoE 1 exists still, go play that if you want economy, crafting, xp loss on death.

All that's going to happen to PoE 1 is that it will likely be obsolete if this game continues to copy PoE 1.

And then you have to ask yourself, what was the point of 6 years of development, millions of man-hours and $$, if the goal was to make a slightly different PoE 1.

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onetruelai#7327 wrote:

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Akedomo#3573 wrote:

And most of the time, hard roguelikes are significantly less popular compared to the light, roguelites. That more people tend to enjoy. Also hinting to the fact that most players don't enjoy playing super punishing games.

That doesn't mean hard roguelikes shouldn't exist or that they should be made easier.

POE2 has hundreds of thousands of players. Does that mean it only serves and satisfies the top 1% of players?

Punishment and difficulty aren’t mutually exclusive; it’s just annoying. Still, as I’ve said before, since you think punishment doesn’t matter, and since it doesn’t affect your interests or gaming experience, why are you so opposed to removing it?

I think the xp penalty or the one portal would be ok, I’m used to the xp penalty from PoE1 and dislike (intensely) the PoE2 one portal mechanic as a forced feature.
Neither are going to be new player friendly and will affect retention.

That said, if one portal became a character creation option (like HC and ssf) with a benefit say +10% rarity just for example I’d take that choice all day long.
As for xp penalty I think, particularly new/newer players, people fixate on too much. It’s a set back but the worse problem in PoE2 is the loss of the value that was on the map. Getting that next level isn’t an objective it’s just one point on a passive tree, what’s important is getting better gear to improve your dmg and defences and this takes time.

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Timbo Zero#8289 wrote:

It’s a set back but the worse problem in PoE2 is the loss of the value that was on the map.

It's only a problem because setting up your maps is tedious, unbelievably unfun, and takes too much time. This problem will remain even if one portal rule is removed.