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If dying in the game is punishing, it must be equally fair.
It is currently very punishing, and most deaths are very unfair.
This is coming from a player who absolutely loves hard games, like Dark Souls, and who has played and loved Path of Exile 1.
90% of my deaths in this game make me wonder how I even died, what killed me, or how what did hit me could possibly have instakilled me so unbelievably fast.
I am not a casual player. I want a challenge. These things aren't challenging, they are cheap and eye-roll inducing.
It's the equivalent of randomly getting "Rocks fall everyone dies." with no way to see it coming to avoid it. It's like having a boss instantly kill you with no telegraph.
Dark Souls (all of them) isn't hard, though. It's cheap, it hobbles your controls (You're the only one with a Stamina bar), it has unfair ambushes, uses massive damage to hide the biggest fact:
All Dark Souls-likes are incredibly simple Pattern Recognition games.
It's just that, like Path of Exile 2, they punish you too hard for making one mistake, so it fools your brain into thinking 'This is hard!'
And yet alot of players enjoy them and love them.
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Posted bySakanabi#6664on Feb 2, 2025, 5:36:24 PM
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And yet alot of players enjoy them and love them.
Yes, and?
For the record, I never said they cannot, I won't even if I had the right to (I don't).
Here's something a lot of people here don't seem to want to think about. MOST Dark Soul players don't play Diablo-Style ARPGs. And of those that do, most are not looking for another Souls-like experience. After all, they still have Elden Ring or other flavour of indie Souls-like available for them.
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Posted byNagisawa#4090on Feb 2, 2025, 5:41:40 PM
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Bummer you were put on probation. Whatever that means. I have to take this in chunks. This is early 2000's wall of texting. :)
Endgame punishment: I do think the reward portion could be better, and it will get better, before launch. So I am on hold for that part. I do think the death exp penalty should be adjusted. Make it from 90-100 and +1% penalty per level. Still there, still makes 99-100 the slog, but more respectful towards the way poe2's progression is.
Entertainment is subjective. Some folks love hideout flipping items. Some love unjuiced mapping. Some love campaign blasting. So far, I have found poe2 can be dialed as much as poe1, so I enjoy it as much as I can.
There is some casualness for poe2 and still room for hard content to. In poe1, I do mapping. I am not a bosser. So I blast maps and sell keys for improving my build. I like fighting bosses, however poe1 has a large gulf between what can and cannot do endgame bosses/pinnacles. I hope that is not something in poe2. So far, I haven't done any pinnacles outside of citadels. So I dunno. I do know the amount of damage needed of me, so when I can, I will find out if I am just a mapper in poe2 as well.
I have no qualms on hard content. Every poe1 league, I try to increase the build I enjoy playing and try to fight the pinnacles there. If I can beat them, good, if they are a waste of time and effort, I ignore them. Same will be the case for poe2. I don't let the content caps prevent my enjoyment.
I do hope in poe2 there are ways for every build to become viable for pinnacle content. I would like less of a vast gulf between what can and cannot do those challenges.
Things kind of hinting it... Atlas passives that boost the endgame bosses without much reward. Boss tiers. This way, more builds can defeat them. Sure, this can, and will lead to min-maxing the system. + boss difficulty for reward, but still instantly killable by the best a build could be.
However, the entry to that should be metered. Maybe timed even. Kinda like how mmo's raid bosses have timers. If not the boss, maybe their loot?
Beyond what I said above related to exp death penalty, there are plenty of ways in poe2 to boost your gains, beyond what poe1 does. Pathing around the atlas to make a perfect set of exp towers, and then using exp boosted maps, is like having a handful of untainted paradises all there.
I dunno, a lot of what you brought up has what you felt is solutions found in other places. Maybe read between the lines. I am not disagreeing so much as I am saying what I feel poe2 has going on and why I think it is ok or maybe how it could be tweaked.
++++++++++++++++++++++ You get a gold star sir. This is what I was hoping to find when I first came to the forums to voice my concerns, leveled and measured responses that went beyond "lol u suck, get good". I'm not demanding GGG makes the game I want. I just want something of a compromise that doesn't make me feel like I'm doing nothing with the 1-3 hours I have to put into the game on most days.
I to want something more than what poe2 really gives right now. Knowing what GGG does, I am sure I will have good and bad with every update and release. However, at the end of the day, I have thousands of hours invested, and I find enjoyment for some hours, and that is all I really want. :) Hope you find it to.
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Posted bySeikojin#1601on Feb 2, 2025, 6:06:45 PM
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Did you really pull the most unreliable source of information to try and prove some abstract point. Marvel rivals can be considered an MMO if you want to included it. Any game that is Online, designed around multiplayer, and made to capture a as massive as an audience as possible can fall under the bracket of MMO. But the main point of what I was saying is that its not a game owned an maintained by the players it's done so by the company and if that company goes under so does the game. There is no POE without GGG so it is their game to fix not mine to manage
Bwhahha. I didn't know Minecraft was a MMO, League of legend was a MMO, Counter Strike was a MMO, StarCraft was a MMO. All this times, those massive, online, and multiplayers games were MMOs and I didn't even know it.
Careful, you're learning.
Yeah bro ! I learnt a few things today :
That PoE2 is the best MMO-FPS plateform racing game ever made, that you believe that the earth is flat, and that you can only lie as much to us as you lie to yourself.
Last edited by dwqrf#0717 on Feb 2, 2025, 7:01:12 PM
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Posted bydwqrf#0717on Feb 2, 2025, 6:53:09 PM
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you can only lie as much to us than you lie to yourself.
i like this phrase
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Posted byAintCare#6513on Feb 2, 2025, 6:54:27 PM
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you can only lie as much to us than you lie to yourself.
i like this phrase
Not -than- though, -as-.
English is hard, but not as hard as understanding video games types !
Last edited by dwqrf#0717 on Feb 2, 2025, 7:02:10 PM
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Posted bydwqrf#0717on Feb 2, 2025, 7:00:49 PM
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Games are entertainment products first and foremost. Not challenges, not art, not scoreboards to be climbed, and especially not jobs.
lets not forget that these lines were at the beginning of the OPs essay.
This amazing.....two lines of text. I can't even begin to fathom how a gamer and a human being could write that and not immediately delete it.
"Not Challenges": not every game can be candyland (the only known game with ZERO challenge). The entire concept of "Game" was built on challenge.
"Not Art": are we still playing Zork? Which also was a form of "art". What about the entire JRPG genre? Or pretty much anything visual and auditory.
"Not Leaderboards": SOME games don't have leaderboards. Some do. Some are entirely based around the leaderboard as being their entertainment factor. Again....the entire concept of "game" was built on a form of leaderboard (ancient greek olympics anyone? Ancient asian miltary strategy games?)
"Especially not Jobs": tell that to every pro athlete or pro gamer.
Starting anew....with PoE 2 Last edited by cowmoo275#3095 on Feb 2, 2025, 7:18:32 PM
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Posted bycowmoo275#3095on Feb 2, 2025, 7:09:50 PM
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Dark Souls (all of them) isn't hard, though. It's cheap, it hobbles your controls (You're the only one with a Stamina bar), it has unfair ambushes, uses massive damage to hide the biggest fact:
All Dark Souls-likes are incredibly simple Pattern Recognition games.
It's just that, like Path of Exile 2, they punish you too hard for making one mistake, so it fools your brain into thinking 'This is hard!'
Then which games are hard, in your opinion? Is any ARPG has any hard content in your opinion?
I guess according to your logic, any ARPG can't have any slightly hard content even in theory, because combat in these games is all about pattern recognition and reacting to it with one of few ways. You don't need to lift heavy bags of cement while playing, what can be hard about pressing keys.
Last edited by Suchka_777#4336 on Feb 2, 2025, 9:00:56 PM
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Posted bySuchka_777#4336on Feb 2, 2025, 8:38:57 PM
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from one casual SSf.. I agree with the main post.. still I add, on the "vision"
GGG either is lost on their vision or have two "visions" as the campaign and end-game are 180 from each other.. the campaign is very enjoyable (cruel included), alas, when one reach endgame is when the fun ends and frustration arrives.. GGG must focus on a balance of what their focus and vision trully is for poe2 and what the community at large is returning as feedback.. so far, the endgame is the main reason people are leaving (me including) as it is not fun... may GGG refocus their vision, and "fix" their game.
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Posted byZebak#3076on Feb 2, 2025, 9:04:37 PM
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Games are entertainment products first and foremost. Not challenges, not art, not scoreboards to be climbed, and especially not jobs.
lets not forget that these lines were at the beginning of the OPs essay.
This amazing.....two lines of text. I can't even begin to fathom how a gamer and a human being could write that and not immediately delete it.
"Not Challenges": not every game can be candyland (the only known game with ZERO challenge). The entire concept of "Game" was built on challenge.
"Not Art": are we still playing Zork? Which also was a form of "art". What about the entire JRPG genre? Or pretty much anything visual and auditory.
"Not Leaderboards": SOME games don't have leaderboards. Some do. Some are entirely based around the leaderboard as being their entertainment factor. Again....the entire concept of "game" was built on a form of leaderboard (ancient greek olympics anyone? Ancient asian miltary strategy games?)
"Especially not Jobs": tell that to every pro athlete or pro gamer.
Easy, I don't delude myself on what a purchase means. I was talking with my friends about the value of painted art and how its entirely subjective and that artist can charge especially whatever they want as long as there are customers that are willing to pay. My friends all thought I was stupid for being willing to pay (if I had money like that) 5 figures for an original hand painted piece that I liked, and guess what I agreed with there reasoning. I didn't delude myself with sweat nothings about how the art will surely go up if/when the artists passes, or how I was doing some noble thing by supporting a local aspiring artist. They were right, its a little silly that I would essentially gamble on the value of something like that when the value is entirely subjective and there's nothing to show that it will even maintain the value id be willing to pay. I don't lie to myself that multimillion dollar companies are making these entertainment products simply for the love of the game, I know they are only truly interested in profit because they literally have a legal obligation to be as such. I framed my post as such to appeal to GGG not the "gamer", average or hardcore. I spoke to them as a customer dissatisfied with there experience and laid out my reasons for it. In the end only time will tell if the experience I had is enough to effect the numbers and will all come down to whether GGG is willing to tank a hit to sales to satisfy there vision or bow out to the market. Games are not anything more then products to the companies that sell them regardless of the beauty beholden in the eyes of fans.
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