The biggest issue with the endgame is NOT that it is TOO punishing, it's that...

"

RedaOu#0533 wrote:

"

Magoraz#6258 wrote:

Oh... I think this is the simplicity you wanted:

You stated - you are forced to play a boring version of the game.

My Answer - due to this potential punishment, I get gud and play the game using the appropriate mechanics.

So only playing a boring version of the game would motivate you to get good, not, y'know, the fun of being good, the currency time and exp lost? Delete your account? Not enough. It has to specifically be forcing you to be bored and only that would make you get good? If true I'm very glad to say no serious game dev would cater to you as player, not even GGG -- what they've done here clearly isn't intentional and I look forward to the game becoming fun when they figure how to to do this better in the future.

You might be more lost than I thought. Let's discuss how mechanics shape player behaviour.

Risk vs. reward systems and game mechanics are fundamental to shaping player behavior, and they serve as a key motivator for improvement. It's not about "being forced to be bored" but about designing systems that incentivize growth through meaningful challenges. When the stakes are higher—be it through currency, time, or experience loss—players are naturally encouraged to learn, adapt, and improve because the rewards for mastery feel significant.

POE will thrive with their long-term player base when they strike the right balance: the risk needs to feel fair, and the rewards need to feel earned. This creates tension and engagement, where overcoming a challenge feels satisfying because the game mechanics push you to do better. Without meaningful consequences or incentives, players will lack the motivation to refine their skills, and the gameplay could become flat (think D4).

Something as simple as removing single death maps and player XP would absolutely kill the game design.

"

Magoraz#6258 wrote:

"

RedaOu#0533 wrote:

"

Magoraz#6258 wrote:

Oh... I think this is the simplicity you wanted:

You stated - you are forced to play a boring version of the game.

My Answer - due to this potential punishment, I get gud and play the game using the appropriate mechanics.

So only playing a boring version of the game would motivate you to get good, not, y'know, the fun of being good, the currency time and exp lost? Delete your account? Not enough. It has to specifically be forcing you to be bored and only that would make you get good? If true I'm very glad to say no serious game dev would cater to you as player, not even GGG -- what they've done here clearly isn't intentional and I look forward to the game becoming fun when they figure how to to do this better in the future.

You might be more lost than I thought. Let's discuss how mechanics shape player behaviour.

Risk vs. reward systems and game mechanics are fundamental to shaping player behavior, and they serve as a key motivator for improvement. It's not about "being forced to be bored" but about designing systems that incentivize growth through meaningful challenges. When the stakes are higher—be it through currency, time, or experience loss—players are naturally encouraged to learn, adapt, and improve because the rewards for mastery feel significant.

POE will thrive with their long-term player base when they strike the right balance: the risk needs to feel fair, and the rewards need to feel earned. This creates tension and engagement, where overcoming a challenge feels satisfying because the game mechanics push you to do better. Without meaningful consequences or incentives, players will lack the motivation to refine their skills, and the gameplay could become flat (think D4).

Something as simple as removing single death maps and player XP would absolutely kill the game design.

No, rather it is you who is lost. This post you've made is exactly what misconception I was referring to when I said you were being "irrelevant to everything I said".

Because my criticism is not at all about the level of risk vs reward. It is ONLY about the forced unfun gameplay. You can triple the risk if you want, maybe that is a good balance for shaping player behaviour to be more defensive and thoughtful with their builds. That's up to GGG and what they want from the game, and it's also NOT what I'm talking about and I have mentioned this like 5 times through various posts neither have I ever mentioned that the risk is too high or the reward not enough. It simply isn't a topic I'm talking about.

If you cannot understand the difference between "I lost 100% EXP, 10000 divines, and 10,000 hours of progress. Guess I gotta go back and keep playing the fun game to make it back to where I was" and "If I want to continue I have to play a version of the game that is unfun and boring, yay" and how these two things are fundamentally different then I don't know what to say. I'm just not going to bother replying to someone posting off-topic messages.

"

RedaOu#0533 wrote:

No, rather it is you who is lost. This post you've made is exactly what misconception I was referring to when I said you were being "irrelevant to everything I said".

Because my criticism is not at all about the level of risk vs reward. It is ONLY about the forced unfun gameplay. You can triple the risk if you want, maybe that is a good balance for shaping player behaviour to be more defensive and thoughtful with their builds. That's up to GGG and what they want from the game, and it's also NOT what I'm talking about and I have mentioned this like 5 times through various posts neither have I ever mentioned that the risk is too high or the reward not enough. It simply isn't a topic I'm talking about.

If you cannot understand the difference between "I lost 100% EXP, 10000 divines, and 10,000 hours of progress. Guess I gotta go back and keep playing the fun game to make it back to where I was" and "If I want to continue I have to play a version of the game that is unfun and boring, yay" and how these two things are fundamentally different then I don't know what to say. I'm just not going to bother replying to someone posting off-topic messages.

The RISK is the downside that is unfun. Nothing about failing and being punished (irrespective of what the punishment is) is going to be fun. It should feel demoralising and punishing (obviously this is the point of failing the mechanic i.e. the risk). It should make you re-think your choices.

XP Loss - Potentially hours of gameplay (NOT FUN)
Loss of Map Mechanics - Holy crapola this also is highly NOT FUN
Loss of Tablet modifiers - DAMN... that sucks
Potentially having to run the map again - OUCH

All of this is NOT FUN and is part of the risk system. Every punishment isn't going to be fun, but what it will do, is shape player behaviour.

"

Magoraz#6258 wrote:

"

RedaOu#0533 wrote:

No, rather it is you who is lost. This post you've made is exactly what misconception I was referring to when I said you were being "irrelevant to everything I said".

Because my criticism is not at all about the level of risk vs reward. It is ONLY about the forced unfun gameplay. You can triple the risk if you want, maybe that is a good balance for shaping player behaviour to be more defensive and thoughtful with their builds. That's up to GGG and what they want from the game, and it's also NOT what I'm talking about and I have mentioned this like 5 times through various posts neither have I ever mentioned that the risk is too high or the reward not enough. It simply isn't a topic I'm talking about.

If you cannot understand the difference between "I lost 100% EXP, 10000 divines, and 10,000 hours of progress. Guess I gotta go back and keep playing the fun game to make it back to where I was" and "If I want to continue I have to play a version of the game that is unfun and boring, yay" and how these two things are fundamentally different then I don't know what to say. I'm just not going to bother replying to someone posting off-topic messages.

The RISK is the downside that is unfun. Nothing about failing and being punished (irrespective of what the punishment is) is going to be fun. It should feel demoralising and punishing (obviously this is the point of failing the mechanic i.e. the risk). It should make you re-think your choices.

XP Loss - Potentially hours of gameplay (NOT FUN)
Loss of Map Mechanics - Holy crapola this also is highly NOT FUN
Loss of Tablet modifiers - DAMN... that sucks
Potentially having to run the map again - OUCH

All of this is NOT FUN and is part of the risk system. Every punishment isn't going to be fun, but what it will do, is shape player behaviour.

You're still missing the point, and this is really the last bit of charity I can give you I can't spend all day walking you through this step by step, especially when I'm feeling more and more like you're trolling me here.

No one is going to enjoy failing and losing any amount of resource they've built up as a consequence. But after that transient moment they go back to playing the FUN GAME!

What I'm pointing out is categorically different. Because after whatever transient moment of unfun they have, from whatever you have decided is the best level of resource punishment for the player, we are then returned to a version of the game that is actively unfun to play. The issue isn't that the consequence of failure are unfun, it's that THE GAME ITSELF becomes unfun. It isn't "oh no I have to run the map again" it's "I have to run a boring and unfun version of the map". And that is a terrible way of designing any game that is supposed to be fun, the core gameplay should never be boring and unfun.

You cannot fail to grasp this from the examples I gave in the video but here is another one just in case: Imagine if failing a Hunt in Monster Hunter locked all the weapon types and left you with only a wifflebat that does 1 damage as punishment, and you have to succeed in slaying an apex azuros before all your weapons are unlocked and you can play normally again. Punishing, sure. But also unfun and shit game design.

I need to sleep so I won't be able to discuss anymore but I'll just cross post my pinned comment on the youtube video which, y'know, I made directly after I posted the video hours ago.

"

me wrote:

The main thing I'm getting at here is that while losing EXP or losing currency, or losing time/progress, is "punishing", (and certainly many players might be temporarily upset at losing those things) it doesn't make the core gameplay less fun! Removing the mechanics from the nodes and forcing you to run plain maps instead is making the game less fun as a form of punishment. Well that certainly is "punishing", but it also makes your game less fun, which is a fucking terrible idea.

Be as punishing as you want, make the consequences soul crushing in that moment for all I care. Just don't make your game boring, even temporarily, as a consequence (assuming you want to have a game that is not boring).