POE 2 flask changes feedback

Hello GGG.
So far I love everything you have done with POE2, with one exception.

I like the change reducing the flask slots to two and adding trinkets, this actually solves all the problems. But with the next change, I think you went too far and that poses a lot of fundamental problems in the future of POE2.

Having two flask slots solves the major problem for new players, simplifying the flasks and removing the flask piano.
Just with that change, things will be simple for them and they will default to a life and mana flask regardless even without placing flask type limits to the slots themselves.

But limiting us to one life and one mana slot is a problem in itself, that should not exist in the first place. And adding an unique that allows us to slot 2 life flasks is insult to injury. What if we actually want to slot 2 mana flasks and have no use of a life flask? And why limit future designs options and freedom, it makes no sense. Here is the fundament of the problem.

1. The problem is already solved, there's no need to go overboard by limiting the slots themselves by flask type, it's unnecessary. Let them just be flask slots.

2. By limiting the slots to 1 life and mana flask each shoots you (and us) in the leg for future design possibilities such as re-adding tinctures we can use in any slot or guard flasks. New players will most likely not use them anyways, but for old players it will be what we want and brings another build axis.

After all flexibility is the core of POE, unnecessary limitations don't help, this is very different from the support gem changes, as you are literally making two gear slots useless for many builds and that's a very "feels bad moment". Players should not be punished for solving a problem like recovery by for example completely removing the need for mana with the new Infernalist ascendancy.
A CI infernalist will not need a Mana flask and may use a life flask only with the Ethernal youth keystone.


3. These slots should be for action trigger items on demand with no automation as gear slot philosophy for the flask slots, it should not be mandatory for these to be actual flasks either, as long as they fit in that slot like Tincutres for example and I want to see more such item types.
It's two gear slots and moving away from this is a very bad design desision, to the point it's patronising the ability of new players to know what to do with two flask slots. There are so many things that can be there besides life and mana flask and what we use should depend on our build, not being locked in this decision by the game. This limitation does not work for POE due to the sheer depth POE has like no other game out there and that's a good thing, that's why I love it.

How about unique flasks, there certainly is room for guard flasks in the future. Like for example an iron skin flask, that adds a barrier absorbing damage for 3 seconds, or one that does something else, the possibilities are endless. And what makes this even more interesting is the fact that if we want that, we will have to sacrifice either a life or a mana flask. The opportunity cost is higher than ever and that's very good for balance actually. The key takeaway here is that we should be able to use what we need, rather than being locked in the "Life flask goes here, Mana flask goes there" needless handholding that even new players will not need, let alone veterans playing POE since 2013 (The new player problem and the flask piano issue is already solved by reducing the flask slots to 2 and introducing trinkets).

What I ask for is a simple change, that will make the game better for everyone:

Make slots flask-agnostic, don't create problems that should not be there in the first place with flask type limitations and leave the door open for other stuff that we may slot in there in the future. Let us use what we deem useful in the two flask slots. This I guarantee will not impact the new player experience at all and will not confuse them. I know that's the main reason for the change. The problem is already solved, no need to overdo it. 😊

Another thing I don't like is the Atlas design, it feels like a Heroes 3 map. Not that I don't like Heroes 3, it's just not fitting but that's not a big issue and I am sure it will get a facelift in the future with some more grittiness fitting the grim dark world of Wraeclast.

And I am not keen on currency dropping like rain. I may play SSF, but I know this will cheapen the experience a lot.

I almost forgot my second suggestion.
Things like Accuracy, Armour and Evasion for example are a bit ambiguous. What would help tremendously is simply having the stat calculation formula in the tooltip description. It will not hurt to have it and will give us accurate mechanical information.

Cheers!! I really hope the devs read this rant and I apologize for making it too long and at times, overpassionate. It's not without merit and this I guarantee, will make everyone happy, new and old players alike and will not hurt the game in any way, I took these things into consideration.

This is a deep discussion, here's my take

I think that yeah we should be able to choose between 2 life or 2 mana flasks instead of 1 of each without the need of key stones or uniques

The problem is when you start adding other types of flasks, for example a flask that increase movement speed or damage, this kind of creates a meta where life and mana flasks are a problem, a limitation that you HAVE to overcome through life/mana recover on doing damage or something like that

That way your flasks can be used for something else that will let you kill things faster and that basically becomes the only right way to play the game

"

Vyend#2601 wrote:

This is a deep discussion, here's my take

I think that yeah we should be able to choose between 2 life or 2 mana flasks instead of 1 of each without the need of key stones or uniques

The problem is when you start adding other types of flasks, for example a flask that increase movement speed or damage, this kind of creates a meta where life and mana flasks are a problem, a limitation that you HAVE to overcome through life/mana recover on doing damage or something like that

That way your flasks can be used for something else that will let you kill things faster and that basically becomes the only right way to play the game

I don't think it will be a problem and become the only right way to play the game. The opportunity cost is too high because you have two flask slots only and solving recovery is not that easy in POE2.
It will be for specific use cases, but 80% of people at least will use a life and mana flask anyways, because it will be optimal.

An example I gave earlier is a CI infernalist, which has no use of a life and a Mana flask anyways, unless you keystone Eternal youth, where you can recover ES with life flasks. This is POE, all I want is for the flask slots not to be limited by type as it does not fit the game at all.

As for what they can add. Tinctures require very specific builds and investment, also you will have to sacrifice either a life or a mana flask to slot in one. And at least 10 skill points to make them effective.
Guard flask are an option as well, but they will require that you sacrifice a life and a mana flask and will work like guard skills in POE1. Both options have high opportunity costs and are not the most effective way to play, as they require either investment or come as an option for specific niche builds.

I think some flexibility is needed, for example a CI build needs no mana but does need ES (maybe we can roll extra es during flask effect I don’t know but) there should be the choice to replace one but not both with a non slot specific flask and the game should have such flasks available for such things.

Also, mageblood out of POE II apparently. And good riddance, this item is lowkey bis for every build in this game, save for very specific outliers. Adding this item AFTER enkindling orbs was a big mistake.

Still, there are many character builds that don't need either a life or mana flask and I would like to be able to swap them out for something more useful. Such as a CI builds that do not have any use out of life flasks or blood magic builds that do not use mana.

Very endgame builds also tend to ditch life flasks even without using CI or mageblood. They have other sources of sustain such as strong leech or life on hit.

But we don't know. POE II is a different game. Action oriented gameplay with wsad movement and dodge rolls doesn't mix well with flask piano.

"

Esubane#6099 wrote:

Also, mageblood out of POE II apparently. And good riddance, this item is lowkey bis for every build in this game, save for very specific outliers. Adding this item AFTER enkindling orbs was a big mistake.

Still, there are many character builds that don't need either a life or mana flask and I would like to be able to swap them out for something more useful. Such as a CI builds that do not have any use out of life flasks or blood magic builds that do not use mana.

Very endgame builds also tend to ditch life flasks even without using CI or mageblood. They have other sources of sustain such as strong leech or life on hit.

But we don't know. POE II is a different game. Action oriented gameplay with wsad movement and dodge rolls doesn't mix well with flask piano.

Flask piano is gone anyways, all we need is flexibility and options for the two flask slots right off the bat, without uniques or keystones. 😎
They just went a step too far by locking them to a dedicated by type life and mana flask slots. This needs to be rolled back to simply two flask slots. I agree with the other changes.

"

Vyend#2601 wrote:

this kind of creates a meta where life and mana flasks are a problem, a limitation that you HAVE to overcome through life/mana recover on doing damage or something like that

That problem exists regardless. Having to hit extra keys to maybe (though probably not, b/c most trash gives no charges in poe2) get recovery boosts sucks, just on its own; it's not a good gameplay experience. Having sufficient passive mana recovery to not have to worry about mana is always going to be highly desirable because it makes the game more fun for most players, almost no one actually enjoys not being able to use their skills because they're out of mana. Life recovery is similar, you're always going to want to have sufficient passive recovery that you rarely if ever have to worry about it; having an "oh fuck I'm about to die" emergency life boost available does provide some incentive to still have a life flask no matter what, but that doesn't take away the incentive for the passive recovery.

Limiting Flasks is well worth the loss. In fact allowing us to gain charges through kills hurts the concept. By limiting Flask charges and thereby limiting recovery they can more reasonably design damage intake. Gaining charges for killing enemies is kin to Lifesteal. I hope most understand why this is a bad stat design? It's rewarding defense with offense.

Realistically we should only gain potion charges at key points in the game. Checkpoints. Before a boss fight or similar and what you have is what you get. What helps this work is a player's natural recovery, regeneration, ES, Blocking and similar.

This is based on the three basic damage types. Chip, Burst and Telegraphed.

- Chip Damage is used to hinder the player's natural recover and potentially overwhelm.
- Burst Damage is used to trigger a response from the player like drinking a potion.
- Telegraphed is used to one-shot or nearly to punish the player for not paying attention.\

Using ES an an example. Chip Damage prevents it from regenerating however only a heavy amount will impact it's value. Burst damage will impact it's value so the player must decide on the fly what their ideal targets are. This happens naturally without nonsense Archnemisis type designs.

"

That problem exists regardless. Having to hit extra keys to maybe (though probably not, b/c most trash gives no charges in poe2) get recovery boosts sucks, just on its own; it's not a good gameplay experience. Having sufficient passive mana recovery to not have to worry about mana is always going to be highly desirable because it makes the game more fun for most players, almost no one actually enjoys not being able to use their skills because they're out of mana. Life recovery is similar, you're always going to want to have sufficient passive recovery that you rarely if ever have to worry about it; having an "oh fuck I'm about to die" emergency life boost available does provide some incentive to still have a life flask no matter what, but that doesn't take away the incentive for the passive recovery.

The reason it sucks is because the interaction itself isn't engaging or rewarding, games like The Division 2 handles this well, basically you have to choose between 2 methods of health recovery, in one you quickly recover 25% of your health by double pressing V without losing the ability to move, and the other you need to hold the button down for a few seconds to recover it fully but you can't move at all, and you can further customize this interaction with bonuses like overhealth, more dps, utility, etc

If you make a system with this level of engagement and rewards players would treat flasks just like skills in their arsenal

On a further note, there are keystones like Blood Magic and Vaal Pact, that make either a life or a Mana flask completely useless. I hope GGG makes these slots interesting for builds who do not need these specific flasks by making them useable for any type of flask and re-introducing tinctures and adding guard flasks in the future. Recovery is not the only thing you want to press a button for once in a while.