99.99% of all item drops are complete trash

"

Nomancs wrote:

There will always be bad items, average, and good, so if you remove "bad items" pool, average will take their place, and will be called bad. I believe that for some it could lead to a point where they will expect triple elevated influenced items to drop.

You missed the point....you aren't REMOVING any items. You are tailoring the items more towards where you are in your character development. You are shifting the entire mindset of the game back to where it should have been all along: from farming CURRENCY to farming ITEMS.

You are 100% correct....removing the "bad" items will create a new lowest level of item. This is the "harvest effect". But the whole deal is that the average "better" drops only happen in the late game, when you NEED them to drop. And of course the actual scale of what the rolls become, when they change, etc. needs to be worked out.

You can't honestly be saying that a system where nearly every single dropped item is filtered away and hidden is GOOD for replayability...if you've ever played literally any other loot-based arpg besides PoE. Improving the drops in some way from where we are NOW will only have positive impacts ON AVERAGE. Certain ruthless lovers might disagree, but that is a very small minority.

The only way a scaling drop modifier would fail miserably is if, like harvest, the items that drop are too perfect...too fast. There is a problem with taking an eternity to gear one character SSF (current ssf / ruthless), but there is also an EQUAL problem with taking a week to gear one character to godhood SSF (also known as the diablo effect).


And yes, I am using the terms "ssf" but not in terms of the SSF mode. I just literally mean that across all aspects of the game, you should be FINDING upgraded gear far more often than now. Crafting gear should still have the ability to make the best possible items, but the AVERAGE crafting should be significantly less powerful while drops are significantly more powerful. Kinda like what they did with veiled mods, but with all drop mods and tiers.



I also even disagree with your "reasons" for choosing whether to start a new character or not. I get that its your opinion and not exactly something I can 100% just claim is not true.....but you ignore how the current drop system, cost, and game loop interacts with your stated reasons for a new build. What stifles "creativity" more than being unable to gear a character? What stifles "uniqueness" more than having to rely on a single expensive item you spent weeks farming for, because you will never find (or craft) anything even remotely close to that value or level in the wild? Experienced players such as you or I can see down the path: what is the game loop going to look like on the NEW character after the slog through the campaign? If nothing drops, then its just yet another currency farmer and that always has a hand in how long you are willing to stick with a new build.

"

jsuslak313 wrote:

"

Nomancs wrote:

There will always be bad items, average, and good, so if you remove "bad items" pool, average will take their place, and will be called bad. I believe that for some it could lead to a point where they will expect triple elevated influenced items to drop.

You missed the point....you aren't REMOVING any items. You are tailoring the items more towards where you are in your character development.

So at this point I would get double elevated items? And then triple? and then quadruple? Or t0 explicits?

"

jsuslak313 wrote:

You can't honestly be saying that a system where nearly every single dropped item is filtered away and hidden is GOOD for replayability...if you've ever played literally any other loot-based arpg besides PoE. Improving the drops in some way from where we are NOW will only have positive impacts ON AVERAGE. Certain ruthless lovers might disagree, but that is a very small minority.

I think removing 90% of gear would be just fine. Can be lower bases, and that's it. No compensation needed.

"

jsuslak313 wrote:

The only way a scaling drop modifier would fail miserably is if, like harvest, the items that drop are too perfect...too fast. There is a problem with taking an eternity to gear one character SSF (current ssf / ruthless), but there is also an EQUAL problem with taking a week to gear one character to godhood SSF (also known as the diablo effect).

I wouldn't worry on those, especially about ruthless, as those are fully side modes.

"

jsuslak313 wrote:

And yes, I am using the terms "ssf" but not in terms of the SSF mode. I just literally mean that across all aspects of the game, you should be FINDING upgraded gear far more often than now.

So at this point I would get double elevated items? And then triple? and then quadruple? Because this can be a straight way to power creep skyrocket out of control. What kind of "upgraded" gear we're talking about? upgraded compared to what? in what way upgraded?

"

jsuslak313 wrote:

Crafting gear should still have the ability to make the best possible items, but the AVERAGE crafting should be significantly less powerful while drops are significantly more powerful. Kinda like what they did with veiled mods, but with all drop mods and tiers.

Wouldn't it be just better to nerf crafting? Because what you ask for is just power creep. I mean, we still get great items from drops, at least I do, I earned like 50divs on first week from ground GEAR (not currency).


I see what you want to do, but most of it will end up with so much power creep that GGG will have to buff difficulty twice a league - at least that's how I see it will go. I do agree that there are too many items, but I'd be fine with just 90% cut - a way more clean solution, without the power creep.

It is NOT power creep, it is shifting the MIDDLE of power. Power creep involves adding NEW levels of power to the existing pool, raising the ceiling.

We aren't touching the ceiling.

That's why all this talk of double/triple elevated items is completely irrelevant and willfully ignoring the point.

You are talking about the extremes which wouldn't be touched or changed in any way.


And frankly, your comments even reinforce my point. There is a WORLD of gameplay between "garbage" and triple elevated t0 gear. You are totally ignoring that, while I am trying to ADD more stepping stones between them.

There is zero reason, ZERO, that a build capable of clearing t16 maps.....should be dropping gear with mods from Act 1.

I feel like just with the health and multiplier changes, most middle ground scaling is better than ever.

"

Mashgesture wrote:

I feel like just with the health and multiplier changes, most middle ground scaling is better than ever.

Yes I totally agree, it is certainly better. I think one of the single greatest things GGG ever did was allow fractured items to drop in regular gameplay. Allows for more low to middle end crafting. But I think it could still improve drastically by shifting the "meta" loop from "farm currency, buy items, because no useful items will ever realistically drop" to "farm items to improve up to a higher point, farm currency to min/max". And this can only ever happen if the DROPS change. Presumably, the further you get in difficulty the better the gear should be that drops.....and that just isn't the case in PoE. Instead, we get a higher ceiling of drop, but also way higher variance leading to a much more painful experience. The "average" drop is still just as trashy as something you would experience in the campaign, or possibly even worse.

"

jsuslak313 wrote:

I also even disagree with your "reasons" for choosing whether to start a new character or not. I get that its your opinion and not exactly something I can 100% just claim is not true.....but you ignore how the current drop system, cost, and game loop interacts with your stated reasons for a new build. What stifles "creativity" more than being unable to gear a character? What stifles "uniqueness" more than having to rely on a single expensive item you spent weeks farming for, because you will never find (or craft) anything even remotely close to that value or level in the wild? Experienced players such as you or I can see down the path: what is the game loop going to look like on the NEW character after the slog through the campaign? If nothing drops, then its just yet another currency farmer and that always has a hand in how long you are willing to stick with a new build.

Sorry, I missed this one. I come from a conclusion - why make next character to do same thing(content) as my current one can do. I am aware how to craft, how to drop good stuff (gear included), and how to earn enough currency to buy whatever unique I want, so nope, this is absolutely not an issue. Also, I would think that road is more important than the destination - learning how to acquire the gear yourself. What is creative in just checking what items build need and just purchase them, making it a lot easier would feel to me almost like using item editor (and is getting gear through item editor any fun?). I already beat everything this league I wanted to, so if there would be something I want to do, and my current character would be bad at it (like deep delving), I would consider making new character (and no, I don't do this for currency, but for sheer joy of discovering what I could find there). I was never really interested in alts in games like WoW either.

"

jsuslak313 wrote:

It is NOT power creep, it is shifting the MIDDLE of power. Power creep involves adding NEW levels of power to the existing pool, raising the ceiling.

We aren't touching the ceiling.

That's why all this talk of double/triple elevated items is completely irrelevant and willfully ignoring the point.

You are talking about the extremes which wouldn't be touched or changed in any way.

Ok, I wasn't sure what items we're talking about, so can you describe it more, like what kind of items do you have in mind and what part of the game you consider "middle of power"?

^the level of dropped item power being changed is in the same post I think you quoted at the beginning of this lol.....the idea is that instead of t16 maps dropping items with t12 - t1 mods rolling, it would instead roll maybe t6-t1, or t4 - t1. Reducing the utterly useless, severely outleveled crap, raising the average power and potential of each and every drop, and NOT raising the max power in the slightest. At the same time, magnitude of item drops can be lowered. So that we even get to a point where players actually turn OFF their item filter at t16 maps. THAT should be the goal. Not filtering more and more, but rather filtering LESS.

"Middle" gearing in terms of rares is gear that focuses on t2 and t1 "normal" mods. What would maybe translate to gear that CURRENTLY ends up being somewhere between 5 and 50 chaos. A full set of "middle" rare gear, by my definition, is gear that will allow you to clear through t16s and at least 2 watchstones. But...it might not provide you with the offensive capabilities to blow through juiced content, nor will it provide you the defensive capabilities to idle in hard maps. On average, of course. Some builds perform better on less, and some builds require more.

You said "I know how to drop good gear"....this is currently impossible, and this cannot be a correct statement. You might be able to force more uniques, which raises the potential of getting a "good" unique, but you most certainly cannot control the rares that drop. And I can say with absolute certainty, that you are running a filter that is hiding 99% of the drops you AREN'T picking up and identifying. So you really aren't dropping good gear. You also mentioned that you made a lot of currency selling raw dropped gear early in the league: of course you did! Early on, an item with 2 good mods is powerful. The issue is how QUICKLY those items become entirely obsolete.....because nothing better is ever going to drop. You might sell rares in teh first few weeks for a decent amount of currency. But by the end of the second week / early third week, you can "reliably" never sell another dropped rare again, unless it is a "special" rare such as a high ilvl base or a t1/t2 popular fracture. And you sell them because, even then, they aren't usable at all. They are only food for crafting.

The idea that you "drop good gear" because you can sell it and make money is a problem right there....that shouldn't be the point of dropped gear! The FIRST thought should be that you "drop good gear" that directly improve your character. But that thought and description doesn't even cross your mind or your posts because it is, for all intents and purposes, IMPOSSIBLE with the current system past maybe early maps.

It is certainly true, that if a system like that were implemented, the VALUE of middle tier gear as a trade commodity would fall. But is that really such a bad thing? Items are designed to be used first, and sold second. Let them actually be useful on average again...

I should clarify: we are NOT talking about people like us....who can probably rip through t16s using gear we found in Act 6 because we have the experience to make the best possible builds. We are talking about nearly everyone else, and improving the OVERALL game experience. Or the myriad of build archetypes that require many small improvements to continue pushing content (such as basically all of melee).

Jaded old fogeys with thousands of hours in the game, the trademasters, the crafting genii, the build behemoths, will feel next to no difference once they start rolling in high-end crafting and optimal farming strategies. But even these folks might actually end up interacting with the game in new exciting ways if the power of the drop were actually returned. Crafters...probably not.

"

jsuslak313 wrote:

"

Mashgesture wrote:

I feel like just with the health and multiplier changes, most middle ground scaling is better than ever.

Yes I totally agree, it is certainly better. I think one of the single greatest things GGG ever did was allow fractured items to drop in regular gameplay. Allows for more low to middle end crafting. But I think it could still improve drastically by shifting the "meta" loop from "farm currency, buy items, because no useful items will ever realistically drop" to "farm items to improve up to a higher point, farm currency to min/max". And this can only ever happen if the DROPS change. Presumably, the further you get in difficulty the better the gear should be that drops.....and that just isn't the case in PoE. Instead, we get a higher ceiling of drop, but also way higher variance leading to a much more painful experience. The "average" drop is still just as trashy as something you would experience in the campaign, or possibly even worse.

Eh I dont think that is something to do with drops but a player/knowledge issue on crafting and recognizing what items that drop are even good in the first place. Games complicated to that extent, and I prefer it to the other games that simplify it WAY too much.

Farming currency and buying items.... really if you are knowledgeable about this game enough you dont approach the game like that. Once you get really good at it, you dont do it at all (ssf). Its up to players on that issue.

Myself I found out very quickly in expedition, sitting in front of Tujen for hours, that the game becomes to silly if you just find X strategy ---> Farm it ---> Buy stuff.

Some people can do that, probably most do, but I would not say its required at all.

Again, this is a player issue and not really something, other than making items just drop foolproof with "THIS IS A REALLY GOOD ITEM" flashing on the screen, that can be fixed.

or other ... make the game way too easy suggestions, like removing half of the tiers (10-6)

Would take value out of actually finding good drops.

To put in perspective of what I am talking about I make stashes like this every league, these are legit just stuff from the ground, that ID to either good 2-3 mods, good %ile bases, fracture bases, high roll exchanges (pref-> suf, Suf-Pref, corrupt implicit chances, influenced bases, %rolled base crafting options...)


I guarantee all of these items, not even some, are all middle of the road items. That can turn into good-great depending on the outcome of crafting on them. Its just majority of the community likes to write off items because its very complicated. And spoil themselves with the best items only bought on trade.

They forget.... this is how items like that end up ON trade lol.

"

Mashgesture wrote:

"

jsuslak313 wrote:

"

Mashgesture wrote:

I feel like just with the health and multiplier changes, most middle ground scaling is better than ever.

Yes I totally agree, it is certainly better. I think one of the single greatest things GGG ever did was allow fractured items to drop in regular gameplay. Allows for more low to middle end crafting. But I think it could still improve drastically by shifting the "meta" loop from "farm currency, buy items, because no useful items will ever realistically drop" to "farm items to improve up to a higher point, farm currency to min/max". And this can only ever happen if the DROPS change. Presumably, the further you get in difficulty the better the gear should be that drops.....and that just isn't the case in PoE. Instead, we get a higher ceiling of drop, but also way higher variance leading to a much more painful experience. The "average" drop is still just as trashy as something you would experience in the campaign, or possibly even worse.

Eh I dont think that is something to do with drops but a player/knowledge issue on crafting and recognizing what items that drop are even good in the first place. Games complicated to that extent, and I prefer it to the other games that simplify it WAY too much.

Farming currency and buying items.... really if you are knowledgeable about this game enough you dont approach the game like that. Once you get really good at it, you dont do it at all (ssf). Its up to players on that issue.

Myself I found out very quickly in expedition, sitting in front of Tujen for hours, that the game becomes to silly if you just find X strategy ---> Farm it ---> Buy stuff.

Some people can do that, probably most do, but I would not say its required at all.

Again, this is a player issue and not really something, other than making items just drop foolproof with "THIS IS A REALLY GOOD ITEM" flashing on the screen, that can be fixed.

or other ... make the game way too easy suggestions, like removing half of the tiers (10-6)

Would take value out of actually finding good drops.

To put in perspective of what I am talking about I make stashes like this every league, these are legit just stuff from the ground, that ID to either good 2-3 mods, good %ile bases, fracture bases, high roll exchanges (pref-> suf, Suf-Pref, corrupt implicit chances, influenced bases, %rolled base crafting options...)

Spoiler

I guarantee all of these items, not even some, are all middle of the road items. That can turn into good-great depending on the outcome of crafting on them. Its just majority of the community likes to write off items because its very complicated. And spoil themselves with the best items only bought on trade.

They forget.... this is how items like that end up ON trade lol.

That entire stash picture i would offer maybe 20 chaos for a base i want. Considering locking prefixes or suffixes costs multiple divines those items with a few good mods are absolute trash and not worth picking up.

If ggg wanted us fixing ground items then rolling on them shouldn't cost an arm and a leg. Especially if I have to annul like 3 mods off to *start* crafting on the base.

Face it, the entire crafting system screams don't touch me. Everything about it just eats time or auto completes in one attempt.