Recent Economic Abuse

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KhelThuzad wrote:

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feydh wrote:

So, player should play a game in a way that it was designed, it is player duty to understand developer intentions. Funny. Crafting reasonable policy for such cases will be difficult, very challenging.

It's quite simple. You can either use an exploit (that is a bug or loophole in the game, not a mechanic per se) or not. They decided to use the exploit to fk the economy for the whole player base. They should be punished.
It's that simple. You do not need telepathic capabilities to fathom this.

It was not an exploit, thats the overall issue here. Players shouldnt have to be able to read devs minds. There are hundreds of YT videos on "How to make currency" so someone finding the most effective way isnt an exploit, and is the primary purpose for many players. People play for chase items and to fill their stash with currency, this is nothing new.

The mechanics worked exactly as intended, there was no bug or loophole.

+GGG reduced div cards to 4 per map.
+GGG created the scrying mechanic to change div cards to other maps
+GGG showed people the tier of maps to get drops (Something used often in crafting to limit rolls, extremely well known use of information and not loophole)
+GGG added scarabs that increase drop rates of div cards.

All these mechanics are working exactly like one would expect them to work.

Im not saying they shouldnt freeze or remove the currency gotten by this to protect the economy from an oversight and change how the mechanics do work after finding out that it allowed for some crazy interactions. But any ban for actually running the mechanics is ridiculous. These mechanics were working exactly as intended. Players shouldnt have to guess what is and isnt okay for mechanics that are working as shown.

I don't think the main issue is that it was used in the first place. I think once they learned of this interaction, and absolutely new it wasn't correct, it should have ceased and been reported as a bug. The issue is that it wasn't, which is evident by the other 249 times the entire group ran it. It's not overreach or crazy to think you would receive a ban for something like this when clearly you must know discretion is completely up to GGG. Whether or not I believe they should be banned I am not sure, but we don't know the severity of the issue internally or how far reach and detrimental to the league it potentially can be. What we also don't know is the record these individuals have with GGG such as RMT, Exploiting, Prior ToS violations, etc. which would also play an important role if they happen to be repeat offenders. We just don't have enough facts to suggest that it's crazy or not to be banning the players.

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PhrozenEclipse wrote:

I don't think the main issue is that it was used in the first place. I think once they learned of this interaction, and absolutely new it wasn't correct, it should have ceased and been reported as a bug.

And how would they KNOW "it wasn't correct" when every single sign points to it being exactly as intended?

When I run a map and 5 raw divines drop, should I be crying bug because usually its 1 divine per 100 maps?

When I run <insert mechanic here> and its spitting out currency and items (heres to you, 3.23 AND 3.24), how am I to know that it simply isn't an awesome overpowered farming strategy that I figured out?

How do you think those streamers who create the "BEST WAY TO MAKE CURRENCY THIS LEAGUE" videos all the time feel when they figure out running things a certain way gets them multiple magnitudes more loot?


THIS. WAS. NOT. A. BUG. This was normal people, using the NEW tools (should have been tested especially because they were new), to create a situation that made them a lot of currency. ALL OF US literally do the exact same thing every single league. The amount of the currency in this particular situation is GGG's fault. Just like what happened with harbingers and mirror shards. Just like what happened with endless blueprints in Heist and regal-to-exalt. Just like vacuuming up ghosts. Just like what happened with spires in 3.23. Just like what happened with allflames and t17s in 3.24.

NONE OF THIS are players exploiting the game. They figured out a way to make currency, nothing more. Something every single person in PoE today does on a daily basis. The problem here is developer quality control: they still have not learned after YEARS of issues, how to deal with NEW content and interactions before they become a problem. They don't test, they don't release pertinent information for the hive mind of the playerbase to find issues. They simply release everything untested and unpolished...and these are the results.

This isn't the first, second, or even fifth time this has happened. And it won't be the last.


All this punishment does is tell us the players that we need to play "in fear" of a ban or retaliation against anything remotely rewarding in the future. A game quite literally centered on every player trying to get as much loot as possible, as fast as possible. And now we need to be afraid of doing that.

Good job, GGG.

How about the Devs of the game can fix whatever the fuck they deemed unfair to the rest of the playerbase, dont like it? leave. End of discussion and case closed.

If You see a mechanic and are aware that it is NOT as intended to be and still decide to use it - exploitation.

Thats it. It is simple.

Not gonna read the whole thread, but exploit or not, I dont think their accounts should be banned. However, they should have their league characters deleted and league items deleted and call it good. They can start over and they'll be fine and so will the league.

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PhrozenEclipse wrote:

I don't think the main issue is that it was used in the first place. I think once they learned of this interaction, and absolutely new it wasn't correct, it should have ceased and been reported as a bug. The issue is that it wasn't, which is evident by the other 249 times the entire group ran it. It's not overreach or crazy to think you would receive a ban for something like this when clearly you must know discretion is completely up to GGG. Whether or not I believe they should be banned I am not sure, but we don't know the severity of the issue internally or how far reach and detrimental to the league it potentially can be. What we also don't know is the record these individuals have with GGG such as RMT, Exploiting, Prior ToS violations, etc. which would also play an important role if they happen to be repeat offenders. We just don't have enough facts to suggest that it's crazy or not to be banning the players.

Here Here!

I agree that situations where an interaction is discovered once and it "feels" like it is broken, it should be reported not exploited as you suggested. However, what is the policy regarding this at the GGG level? We are not employees of GGG so if said interaction is found there is no incentive to report it.

Perhaps, GGG can provide this incentive for reporting broken mechanics (like the issue here and even last league with the meatsack thing) and provide a reward for doing so instead of simply banning individuals. This incentive... I guess.. could be a stack of wisdom scrolls or a shiny mageblood..? /shrug (I am being facetious)

As of this writing, I am seeing some inflation evidence already in this league and, to be honest, I am waiting to see if it corrects or I will be moving on I guess to another game or other ventures.

-Cheers

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de99ial wrote:

If You see a mechanic and are aware that it is NOT as intended to be and still decide to use it - exploitation.

Thats it. It is simple.

Name the part of the mechanic that wasnt intended. We will wait...

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ABagOfChitlins wrote:

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PhrozenEclipse wrote:

I don't think the main issue is that it was used in the first place. I think once they learned of this interaction, and absolutely new it wasn't correct, it should have ceased and been reported as a bug. The issue is that it wasn't, which is evident by the other 249 times the entire group ran it. It's not overreach or crazy to think you would receive a ban for something like this when clearly you must know discretion is completely up to GGG. Whether or not I believe they should be banned I am not sure, but we don't know the severity of the issue internally or how far reach and detrimental to the league it potentially can be. What we also don't know is the record these individuals have with GGG such as RMT, Exploiting, Prior ToS violations, etc. which would also play an important role if they happen to be repeat offenders. We just don't have enough facts to suggest that it's crazy or not to be banning the players.

Here Here!

I agree that situations where an interaction is discovered once and it "feels" like it is broken, it should be reported not exploited as you suggested. However, what is the policy regarding this at the GGG level? We are not employees of GGG so if said interaction is found there is no incentive to report it.

Perhaps, GGG can provide this incentive for reporting broken mechanics (like the issue here and even last league with the meatsack thing) and provide a reward for doing so instead of simply banning individuals. This incentive... I guess.. could be a stack of wisdom scrolls or a shiny mageblood..? /shrug (I am being facetious)

As of this writing, I am seeing some inflation evidence already in this league and, to be honest, I am waiting to see if it corrects or I will be moving on I guess to another game or other ventures.

-Cheers

Target farming divination cards was literally the point of the scry mechanic. did it feel broken or did it feel awesome? The players of the game shouldnt have to do anything based on feelings. Your feelings and my feelings are completely different. Just like this. You think its a broken mechanic, I think its working exactly as intended and presented. You would report it, I would get banned for using it. Its all completely subjective and thats the problem with this case in particular. The mechanic "feeling" too good is not a good enoughh basis for a ban. The entire mechanic was setup and presented to do exactly what they did, and they got banned for it.

I get you guys point, however, you are going to have to try harder if it is your stance that GGG "Intended" for one specific mechanic to drop you 1k raw divines in under a week. It is not "Reasonable" to believe that as a result of said intended mechanic that the drops that did drop where therefore intended. Those are completely separate issues. Once the "intended" mechanic was used and found to have "Unintended" results(btw, there is loads of evidence to support that GGG doesn't intend this from prior events), it should have been reported. No one is arguing the mechanic, but to insinuate that you thought GGG intended to ruin the economy in this way is not a valid argument and you all know it.