The transition from CW to Mark & Jonathan is complete - This is a buff

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Bleu42 wrote:

What I said was factually true. It's only for this upcoming league. It's not in SSF nor is it for standard.

My sentence didn't minimize or misrepresent anything, it was a statement of fact.

Maybe I misunderstood where you were going with your statement. Yes, of course trading doesn't impact SSF, and yes it won't be in Standard.

What I was emphasizing was the fact that this new trading system isn't intended for a single 3-month league. It's intended to be implemented as a core game system, and expanded to include all items.

My fear here, is that it will be easier than ever to "corner the market" for certain groups. Especially as we have both the in-game market and the website market available. Rare currency will flow faster than ever up the pyramid, resulting in higher prices for those currencies.

Not the end of the world, of course, but it is what it is.

There will also be instances where the prices on items will differ between the in-game market and the website market, and for people hellbent on taking advantage of that, there will be shenanigans happening. But if this experiment goas core, the trade API will of course have to be made non-public and some of these problems will disappear.

Making trading cost gold, and gold being account bound, forcing you to farm it yourself, was probably the only way this could be done. And gold prices can always be adjusted. I can see gold prices going up the more you are trading for the same types of currency, to battle bots and market manipulators.

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Phrazz wrote:

My fear here, is that it will be easier than ever to "corner the market" for certain groups. Especially as we have both the in-game market and the website market available. Rare currency will flow faster than ever up the pyramid, resulting in higher prices for those currencies.

Not the end of the world, of course, but it is what it is.

There will also be instances where the prices on items will differ between the in-game market and the website market, and for people hellbent on taking advantage of that, there will be shenanigans happening. But if this experiment goas core, the trade API will of course have to be made non-public and some of these problems will disappear.

Making trading cost gold, and gold being account bound, forcing you to farm it yourself, was probably the only way this could be done. And gold prices can always be adjusted. I can see gold prices going up the more you are trading for the same types of currency, to battle bots and market manipulators.

I mean no one can tell the future, but I have little doubt this is going core. I would also argue that there will be far more currency (in smaller amounts but larger player volume) that there normally would not have been from average people simply not wanting to be bothered by the cumbersome existing systems.

As far as these ambiguous large players in the market. If it comes to pass a few individuals are causing significant problems for everyone else, GGG can simply change the ToS to include the currency marketplace and ban individuals abusing it. No one will feel bad for those folks. I won't. I don't think GGG wants to go there, but they are not going to be handcuffed from innovation by a handful of players, that's counter-intuitive.

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DarthSki44 wrote:

I mean no one can tell the future, but I have little doubt this is going core. I would also argue that there will be far more currency (in smaller amounts but larger player volume) that there normally would not have been from average people simply not wanting to be bothered by the cumbersome existing systems.

As far as these ambiguous large players in the market. If it comes to pass a few individuals are causing significant problems for everyone else, GGG can simply change the ToS to include the currency marketplace and ban individuals abusing it. No one will feel bad for those folks. I won't. I don't think GGG wants to go there, but they are not going to be handcuffed from innovation by a handful of players, that's counter-intuitive.

Players are always faster at finding and exploiting ways to be abusive market-manipulating jerkwads than any game developer is at fixing the loopholes and abuse cases that enable such strategies. Where there is a will to abuse and exploit one's fellow players for selfish personal profit, there will always be a way. ToS violations cannot possibly keep up with a constant flux of new and inventive ways to swindle one's fellows.

Certainly GGG will try and stay on top of this, and I understand this is both a QoL feature the playerbase really wants and a test run for PoE2's own market systems. I suppose I'm just concerned that mating completely automated asynchronous trade to Path the First's legendarily convoluted, obtuse and highly unintuitive market systems is a recipe for potential disaster. There's a limit to how bad the currency market can get of course, but I wouldn't be surprised to see divines going for 500+ chaos per in Settlers. Great when you find a single divine and need to buy a bunch of Twenty Chaos Market gear for getting into red maps, absolutely horrible for trying to figure out buying all the twenty-divine bullcrap the streamers are touting as "low budget" because they're utterly disconnected from the mundane PoE populace.

It's also definitively the case that once GGG does this there's no going back. "Experiment" or no, once the company introduces free asynchronous trade they cannot put that genie back in the bottle if it turns out to be a giant flaming disaster. Not in Path the First.

I suppose we'll see. One way or another, we're about to get a great sneak peek at how PoE2 might work market-wise.

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1453R wrote:

Certainly GGG will try and stay on top of this, and I understand this is both a QoL feature the playerbase really wants and a test run for PoE2's own market systems. I suppose I'm just concerned that mating completely automated asynchronous trade to Path the First's legendarily convoluted, obtuse and highly unintuitive market systems is a recipe for potential disaster. There's a limit to how bad the currency market can get of course, but I wouldn't be surprised to see divines going for 500+ chaos per in Settlers. Great when you find a single divine and need to buy a bunch of Twenty Chaos Market gear for getting into red maps, absolutely horrible for trying to figure out buying all the twenty-divine bullcrap the streamers are touting as "low budget" because they're utterly disconnected from the mundane PoE populace.

It's also definitively the case that once GGG does this there's no going back. "Experiment" or no, once the company introduces free asynchronous trade they cannot put that genie back in the bottle if it turns out to be a giant flaming disaster. Not in Path the First.

I suppose we'll see. One way or another, we're about to get a great sneak peek at how PoE2 might work market-wise.

Keep in mind: Even if divines do go 500c, the price of itens should fall accordingly

Because simply, if divines becomes so valuable, people will not want to spend any given amount of it the same way they spend now because there will be fewer available for everyone, you want to sell something for 200 divines in an enviroment the orb have more than quad current value, the item better be damn good or else nobody will want to buy it or the ones that would want woudnt be able to afford it, the item market will simply adjust the item power in accordence to the number of divines flowing because otherwise, those items will rot on the sales tab until they go standard. Basically, orb availability/number of stuff on the market and the invisible hand doing its stuff

Basically, the 1% may hold most of the currency, but its the 99% that buy most of the stuff and make the brunt of the economy flow(like it is on real life)

I dunno about that. In my own experience, the price of "[X] divines"-grade gear generally remains pretty stable. Two-divine boots will cost 'bout two divines regardless of whether divines are worth 80 chaos, 180 chaos, or 880 chaos. I presume this is a function of crafting costs for the kind of gear people put divine-orb price tags on - it takes however-many divines to make the dang thing regardless of what divines are worth, so the price on those items commensurately remains relatively stable in terms of divine count regardless of the ratio of divines to actual currency.

Mostly that means that when the divine market gets outrageous, 'bad' players who don't know how to automagically generate five hundred divines an hour are simply hard-locked out of higher-end gear. The mid/mid-high range, what I've always called the "Twenty Chaos Market"*, is generally for lucky drops or gear that's either only lightly crafted or was a failed attempt at a more powerful craft. That's the only thing a girl can count on without knowing all the obtuse, unintuitive brain tricks for generating divines out of nothing at explosive rates, but when divine-to-chaos goes low enough we can sometimes dip into the lower echelon of "high end".

I severely doubt that will happen with Settlers, though. The automated currency market is going to drive the price of divines absolutely banana bonkers sky-high, and those of us for whom two or three divines dropping is a pretty solid league are gonna get precisely nowhere beyond the Twenty Chaos Market.




*You have the One Chaos Market i.e. baby's first mapping gear, which despite the name tends to comprise any gear between one to five chaos, that gets you into yellow maps and mebbe early reds if you're lucky. The Twenty Chaos Market that comprises gear from twenty to fifty chaos or so that gets you into late reds if your build is workable and you make smart investments, and is also the tier at which you can actually reasonably expect to be able to afford cluster jewels. The "Pricy Stuff Market" that ranges from the top of TCM up to stuff that runs a single divine. And the "You'll Never Afford This Unless You're a Streamer" market that comprises all the multi-divine stuff that's simply outside the price range of the overwhelming majority of PoE players.

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1453R wrote:

I dunno about that. In my own experience, the price of "[X] divines"-grade gear generally remains pretty stable. Two-divine boots will cost 'bout two divines regardless of whether divines are worth 80 chaos, 180 chaos, or 880 chaos. I presume this is a function of crafting costs for the kind of gear people put divine-orb price tags on - it takes however-many divines to make the dang thing regardless of what divines are worth, so the price on those items commensurately remains relatively stable in terms of divine count regardless of the ratio of divines to actual currency.

I remember things diferently, the value of stuff during the div/exalt swap tended to keep things on the same price range in chaos. From my exp, the value of rares in general is far more stable if measured in chaos than in divines or exalts

And theres affliction and sanctum, both saw noticeable inflation from raw divines influx showing the market DOES change the value of stuff when the number of divines circulating change significantly, esp on affliction, everything was significantly more expensive on mid/late league with prices almost matching standard market

The scenario you are worried about is very much a reverse affliction, with great decrease of currency on the market. If mass influx of currency inflated stuff on affliction, massive removal of divines should translate into equivalent deflation, people will not have many divines to spend and sellers will be forced to lower prices because the bulk of buyers will be poorer

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1453R wrote:

*You have the One Chaos Market i.e. baby's first mapping gear, which despite the name tends to comprise any gear between one to five chaos, that gets you into yellow maps and mebbe early reds if you're lucky. The Twenty Chaos Market that comprises gear from twenty to fifty chaos or so that gets you into late reds if your build is workable and you make smart investments, and is also the tier at which you can actually reasonably expect to be able to afford cluster jewels. The "Pricy Stuff Market" that ranges from the top of TCM up to stuff that runs a single divine. And the "You'll Never Afford This Unless You're a Streamer" market that comprises all the multi-divine stuff that's simply outside the price range of the overwhelming majority of PoE players.

Theres actually a massive market between 1d and "You'll Never Afford This Unless You're a Streamer" that most of the average players that play maps dwell on

Also relevant is that massive bunch of stuff between 1 and 100 divines compromise large amounts of stuff that is crafted with little or no metamods

It's not that there will be more or less currency in the market - hecc, if those Trading Venture screenshots were anything to go by, currency will be exploding from the optimancers' ears - it's the fact that currency bots will be able to corner the market on this stuff to a level never before seen by (PoE-playing) mankind. A single bot supplied with enough base currency could buy every single divine orb on the market in literally seconds and then resell them at whatever price they wished. The only control on this outside the gold cost will be a player's ability to supply their bot with chaos to buy divines with, and any flipper/UHV trader worth the name will make that a nonissue within an hour of setting up their divine-buyer bot.

Flippers, UHV traders, and botters will be able to accelerate the price development in a given league by orders of magnitude, and ordinary players will be left in the cold holding the bag for it. Unless - unless! - the gold cost is at precisely the correct sweet spot where it's trivial for ordinary players but debilitating for flippers who never actually play the game and UHV traders who make tens of thousands of trades a day.

It'd be fantastic if Grinding Gear nailed that sweet spot on the first try, but I honestly hold little hope of that. Bleh.

I believe this is a huge step for a few reasons:

1)It will demonstrate if the bot manipulation is over or under estimated.

2)It can possibly set up for them to more actively fight and invest in means to fight bots.

3)Test if what the players want is actually what they need and if it'll actually affect the game and it's morale towards trading.

We have literal years of unregulated market governed by attrition. Let's see if Chris had a point or it was just hot air.