PoE2 Trade System?

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1453R wrote:

The core argument is the same as it's always been - completely frictionless, utterly unrestricted trade will irrevocably destroy the ingame player economy.

And in a game with trading - that wants trading to be an integral part, this is an important argument. But it goes beyond that in PoE, and the whole "drop, crafting, trading" sunnergy has to be calculated. The effprt/knowledge/time put into one of those aspects, has to somehow be comparable to the other two, or else some aspects become... Well, "unbalanced". Or at least, that should be the goal, even though it might be utopic.

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1453R wrote:

Jonathan Rogers told Zizaran, live on TwitchTube, that trade in PoE2 couldn't be the same as trade in PoE1. His words were "Modern ARPG players won't accept trade that isn't instant buyout, so we have to have instant buyout trade. Modern players also won't accept janky, hard to use search, so we have to have good search. We need to figure out how to do both without blowing up the economy."
... You don't think they're going to do their best to address longstanding pain points when they're able to change anything in a way that simply isn't possible in Path The First?

I appreciate your post, informative and interesting.

A question though - they make massive updates to PoE every 3 months, if they really believed this, why no changes... that honestly doesnt make sense.

No, I dont think they will make real improvements.

We will see, I would be the first and happiest person to admit my skepticism is wrong.

Bad trade in PoE 1 is explained in trade manifesto. GGG would gut loot by quite a lot if they would implement AH in PoE 1, and this would cause a hysteria.

In PoE 2, a fresh game, they could already start with drop rate balanced around AH if they would add it.

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trixxar wrote:

I appreciate your post, informative and interesting.

A question though - they make massive updates to PoE every 3 months, if they really believed this, why no changes... that honestly doesnt make sense.

No, I dont think they will make real improvements.

We will see, I would be the first and happiest person to admit my skepticism is wrong.

Thank you.

Honestly, the way Jonathan explained it in the Zizaran interview made a lot of sense. You pay [X] gold for a trade. Depending on the item being traded, the gold fee can be fairly light - maps, currency swaps, things of that nature - or it can be actually kinda steep, like with gear. The key point is that gold cannot be traded between players - you get the gold you yourself pick up and that's it.

In practice, this means that GGG has a resource in their game they can predict fairly - fairly - well and can use to meter trade. If you only make 100 gold an hour (fake figure for demonstration math purposes) and trading for a map requires a 3-gold tax, you can do that basically for free. But if you only make 100 gold an hour and the trade cost for buying a piece of gear is 200 gold? It takes two hours of play to enable one gear trade. This cost is supposed to scale with item level, since gold drops also scale with character level and thus the whole thing needs to go up as you do, but Jonathan didn't talk in-depth about the math behind the systemn, just the core idea.

It essentially puts a rate limit on trades without actually rate-limiting trades, and it neatly tells flippers to go fuck themselves (a noble and laudable goal) because they need to actually play Path of Exile to make the gold needed to flip, rather than just sitting in the trade website for eight hours and walking away with five hundred Mirrors. It also means trade directly competes with the other uses for gold Grinding Gear is building into the game, which can further restrict trade volume without ever actually impinging on a single given trade. You can instant-buyout exactly the item you searched for, but if you do that too often you run out of gold and have to play with what you've got until you get more.

The reason none of this works for spit in PoE1 is because PoE1 has no gold equivalent. No drop-only resource that can't be traded and can be tuned to allow a given number of trades per hour or whatever, no way for Grinding Gear to regulate trade volume that way. They would need to introduce such a resource to PoE1 to try and use the PoE2 solutions they're working on, and we all know exactly how well THAT would go over.

I still think the fee is on the wrong side, or that there should be some sort of fee for listing as well as buying in order to deter people from dumping every last single drop they ever get into a trade tab regardless of whether it ever sells because they have no good reason not to. But I do think they might be onto something, if they can answer some of the questions the system brings up.

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1453R wrote:

Honestly, the way Jonathan explained it in the Zizaran interview made a lot of sense. You pay [X] gold for a trade. Depending on the item being traded, the gold fee can be fairly light - maps, currency swaps, things of that nature - or it can be actually kinda steep, like with gear. The key point is that gold cannot be traded between players - you get the gold you yourself pick up and that's it.

That's an another problem for me. Picking currency from the ground. Why won't you just make it like expedition and send all the currency drop to the stash automatically? It's just hilarious how time consuming this game is because of all this 'we like oldschool' mindset. It turned into a job instead of a fun game in years.

For the trading side the main problem is lack of good analytics in my opinion. If we had an idea about how hard to get a spesific mod probabilitically it could be easier to price things around the real data. But it's all random, kind of. That means a player can sell a wisdom scroll for a mirror and no one can say anything about that since we are free to do whatever we want with what we have? Right? No that's not right with this trading system they're implementing with PoE2 because as you said they "predict" the drop rates and values. That means if a random guy accumulates all the alchemy orbs in trade for a week with discounted offers by using a bot, the entire player base of this game won't find a single orb of alchemy in trade for a week. Some tiles are not standing strong enough to hold the expectations they've created for PoE2 with their design perspective.

As I understand the old way to trade is still allowed so you can ignore the gold completely and just PM to the buyer/seller to sell your Mageblood?

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cursorTarget wrote:

As I understand the old way to trade is still allowed so you can ignore the gold completely and just PM to the buyer/seller to sell your Mageblood?

I would presume that some sort of fix for this workaround is in the cards, but even if it isn't? Well yes, you can trade the old way - with all the hate and heartache people keep heaping on the PoE1 trade system. That may be how it works for TFT gonks or other high-value or high-volume trades, but the overwhelming majority of trades are likely going to be handled in the buyout system. If you're buying/selling a Mageblood then sure, but chucking twenty chaos on a boots upgrade? No reason not to just buyout.

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1453R wrote:

Honestly, the way Jonathan explained it in the Zizaran interview made a lot of sense. You pay [X] gold for a trade. Depending on the item being traded, the gold fee can be fairly light - maps, currency swaps, things of that nature - or it can be actually kinda steep, like with gear. The key point is that gold cannot be traded between players - you get the gold you yourself pick up and that's it.

I realize the idea is to improve trade but this gold system sounds tedious as f... not to mention you may not be able to trade as you need due to lack of gold or having bought/sold too much in a given time period, or maybe you just got tired of picking up gold off the ground.

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Glorfndel01 wrote:

I realize the idea is to improve trade but this gold system sounds tedious as f... not to mention you may not be able to trade as you need due to lack of gold or having bought/sold too much in a given time period, or maybe you just got tired of picking up gold off the ground.

They should also ensure that the gold coins drop one by one/unstacked; so we can click 5 million extra times every league.