The problem is the PvP system.
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You cannot have a fully random Player vs Player in this game and expect it to be fun. Because that only works in games where PvP Depends on SKILL.
This game depends on GEAR and BUILDs, and it will never change, because of all the mechanics involved. Currently we have random 1v1, random 3v3 and Cutthroat. That is the problem with the PvP here. Those systems are NOT compatible with this game. - Fair and Fun R 1v1 & R 3v3, are meant for games where only SKILL is what matters. Since, i don't like any of the current ways to do PvP, i have some suggestions for PvP alternatives: 1. Non Random Team PvP: Players will create teams beforehand and will enter into a queue as a team, and will be matched with a team of the same number of players. In this case, groups of friends will create characters thinking on the role they play in the TEAM. I like this one because, more build options will appear. 2. Random FFA: Players will enter into a queue and will be tped into a Free for All area, where if they die they have a chance to lose equipment and be looted by other players, also they will lose experience depending on their difficulty, that experience will be gain by the other player. FFA area will have a minimum and maximum number of players, teams will not be allowed. 3. Random Build Team PvP: In this system, the players of the team will NOT be randomly chosen, they will be chosen depending on their build. Example of Builds: Summoner, Fire Caster, Cold Caster, Lightning Caster, Totemist, Physical Archer, Elemental Archer, Physical Melee, Elemental Melee. (I know that there are more builds). In this case, players will play the role of one of those builds in a random team. And teams will have same number of players and the same kind of builds (e.g: caster ranged physical elemental melee vs caster ranged physical elemental melee). EDIT: Obviously, for all the suggestions there MUST be a selection depending on a ranking and level. EDIT: I forgot to mention that if there should be rewards, otherwise, only those who really like to PvP will have fun. For FFA, i mentioned the experience from killing a player and the chance to loot a good item from his corpse. For Team vs Team, an orb for each member of the team that wins. The quality of the orb will depend on PvP points, the more battles you win, the more points you get, also if the enemy has a higher rank, you earn more points, and if lower rank you earn less points. And at the end of the week, you can buy orbs with those points(e.g: Alteration cheap, fusings more expensive rank, regret orb even more expensive, exalted orb very expensive). "The harder the game, the better." Last edited by Vold316#0180 on Apr 23, 2013, 8:19:49 PM
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" Sorry to say but your only decent idea is FFA and thats already been spoken of MANY times. GGG has released some info on the PVP modes and tweaks to come. You should know this, you can make teams before u enter queue. SO 3v3s dont have to be random, only random if u queue outside of a party. Also Random build does not sound like it could EVER be balanced. The system would randomize teams based on builds but what about gear? Gear and lvl would be the most important thing to balance..... If you want more balanced pvp which doesnt take heaps of time to lvl and gather gear, try LvL 28 low level arena matches. They are decently popular on SC and a few people duel in HC as well. LLD imo is more balanced since level isnt so much of a issue and the most expensive unique for this pvp is like 3 exalts or so rather than koams at 20+ exalts. I Stream PvP Twitch.tv/GrindcoreTHRALL THE STORY OF MY Descent into the Abysmal Afterlife( HC to SC, too Stronk!) http://www.pathofexile.com/forum/view-thread/346754 PK massacre, http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ldz09uBZ-ug Last edited by GrindcoreTHRALL#3263 on Apr 23, 2013, 5:11:24 PM
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I agree with most but disagree with some. You can have fun PvP even though you are underleveled. (Assuming random means that you dont know what level the player will be.) I know a guy who on purpose created a PvP char that was ONLY level 16 and didnt level it to 28.(or 17) He was capable of killing some players in level 28. Being underleveled is not allways an excuse for losing. The GEAR and BUILD decides this... of course if this level 16 player leveled to 28 he would be more powerfull... but gear is just way more important than level in this. (With that said, you can obtain better PERFECT/INSANE pvp gear FOR YOUR LEVEL.) If you are level 16 and twink with INSANE gear for level 16 you can easily beat people who have not twinked enough into good level 28 gear.
I agree that extreme amounts of this needs to be fixed... especialy in Merciless and in Cutthroat... But in Cutthroat its also kinda the same. Your level is not everything.. level is actually more important for getting better gear than it is for getting your skillpoint... but of course if a guy is level 60 and has both level 40-50 insane twink gear and more skillpoints then the level 28 with insane twink gear cant beat him. I dont have a problem with the level difference except for WHEN IT IS TOO DAMN EXTREME MUCH like it would be in cutthroat. |
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@GrindcoreTHRALL
1. You can enter in Random 3v3 as a party or as a player, that makes it even worse. 3 Random builds against a team does not sound balanced at all. 2. Obviously, the system should not match a team of players of level 50 with a team of players of level 20. I didnt post about it because that's pretty much obvious. The idea is to match teams of similar level, but also based on a ranking, but they have already planned to add a ranking so i didnt mention that either. 3. The first suggestion is what i'd prefer anyways for team vs team. @FireSkull 1. I agree with that the level does not matter SO MUCH at the begining. Anyways, when i say that R 1v1 and R 3v3 will never be balanced i'm talking of players of the SAME level. It will not be balanced because in this game the PvP is about counterbuilds. The problem that i see is that it's not fun to be selected randomly, to fight against a player of the same level, but with a build that counters your build. 1 vs 1 should only happen in open areas as free for all, because there you can choose your target knowing that you may be able to handle it and run away from builds that counter you. And team vs team, is not going to be fun if the players are chosen randomly. Team vs Team is fun, only if you know your teammates and their builds. There you can really fight as a team. (e.g: Neverwinter Nights (in balanced team pvp servers, such as HoW)). Cutthroat, it's just going to be frustrating for the most of the people and you will see a lot of complaints about PvP balance, which it's really not about balance but about a system that is meant for open worlds (e.g: Tibia (that's a game)). "The harder the game, the better." Last edited by Vold316#0180 on Apr 23, 2013, 5:56:18 PM
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To clarify my point, what does it take for someone to win in a SKILL based and BUILD/GEAR based game.
SKILL (players of same level):
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Random 1v1 = skill Random 2v2 = skill Random 3v3 = skill Random 2+v1 = skill and luck. FFA = planning and skill Team v Team = planning, skill and luck. BUILD/GEAR (players of same level):
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Random 1v1 = Counterbuild / Countergear. Random 2v2 = Kill the healer or glasscannon first. Random 3v3 = Kill the healer or glasscannon first, and some strategy. Random 2+v1 = Rape. FFA = Strategy, knownledge of the mechanics, luck, don't mess with your counterbuild. Random player selection Team v Team = Frustration, and blaming the noob. NON Random player selection Team v Team = Strategy, knownledge of the mechanics, teamwork, luck. That's why i only consider fun to play PvP in FFA, or with friends/known players on a well designed team to play against another well designed team. "The harder the game, the better." Last edited by Vold316#0180 on Apr 23, 2013, 7:54:17 PM
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I disagree that the game is all about "Counter-builds" There is some of that but it only seems to be in a minor degree. For frost witch you just eguip wanderlusts that you keep in your inventory... this does not change you build at all... you just have them in your inv so that you can counter these players... its counter items not counter builds... there are alot of these items. Topaz, ruby and sapphire rings are kinda the same.
However there are alot of builds that simply SUCK HARD in PvP and you would not be smart to play them unless you are going to play them as a support character for your team... Bow rangers, summoners, casters are extremely hard to make well but there are some.. melee just dominates this... Now this is for level 28 PvP as I am not experienced with Merciless PvP.. but since 28 PvP is more balanced something just indicates that melee is OP in PvP... at least in the long term where you have gotten all the twink gear. I dont want to start on how horrible bow rangers are in low level PvP... its just terrible... dont play them for low level PvP. Play a melee ranger. I,ve played with a good melee ranger a few times. There are some counter build skills in the passive tree though. Bloodless forexample is an awesome passive for PvP... Aswell as the Reduced enemy block chance nodes... these only work against shield or dual wielders and wont do anything against 2handed players. (With the exception of staves.) Aswell as Bloodless which wont do anything if the enemy does not have life leech. CI can also be used as a Counter Build skill... but not for low level PvP as it is impossible to get the ES for this in low level PvP. SO yes there are alot of counter skills in the tree... but overall gear is gonna decide if you lose or win while you MIGHT have some skills from your passive tree that can used against a certain build... but again you can just use counter items for this aswell... With that said... I prefer Unwavering Stance over Chayula because Chayula just removes that much of your HP... Duelist seems to be the counter build to kill marauders because if he has Unwavering Stance then the stun nodes wont do a crap to help the marauder... Suddenly these points are wasted for this fight... But of course the Marauder can still win easily as gear is the most important by far.. and the marauder also gets alot of life and other things that duelist does not. |
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I understand your point. But, when i say Builds, i do not just refer to passives, gems and level, but also about gear, because in this game the gear is extremly powerful. You also said it, you can counterbuild by changing your gear, which from my point of view is changing your BUILD.
Gear, passives, gems, level; all of them must be considered when you create a build. That's why this game is about counterbuilds in 1 v 1, call it countergear if you like. There are many Items and Passives you can use to become a counterbuild. the list is so extensive that i will just name a few: Chaos Inoculation, Resolute Technique, Unweavering Stance, Bloodless; Uniques that give immunity to ailments, "Wait let me change my rings to resist the 75% of your damage", Unique Shield that add your chance to block to spells (all of it); etc. I don't think it's just a few. So my point stands. You cannot create a randomized PvP system, because you will see a lot of complains. FFA and TEAM vs TEAM are the best option. "The harder the game, the better." Last edited by Vold316#0180 on Apr 24, 2013, 9:25:25 AM
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" But creating a counter build against a specific character and then only deciding to play against that character sounds boring... In fact reminds me a bit of cheating somehow. If you have them in inv you can just change them on the fly.. How is that changing your core build when it is just laying in your inv to counter certain situations? Its not like they are meant for the actual purpose that the build was made for... If you make a character only meant for countering fire damage and then only play against fire builds then PvP is pretty pointless to me. Your build should have a way of encountering as many other builds as possible... not just attempt get fire resists and then decide I will just play against fire players... thats completely unfair and pointless. (And this wont work in cutthroat league lol...) It needs to be about trying to get as much of EVERYTHING in your character... not decide beforehand that I will play against fire caster and then just get insane gear that only works against fire damage. While there are counter items its not like they are the most important... the BASIC stats are still by far the most important. You said in one of your old post that random 1vs1 and random 3vs3 just means that there is 50 percent chance of each winning... thats not true at all. At least not for low level PvP. How is it just 50 percent like that? If you have a strong twink with alot of BASIC stats then you will win most of the time. Its not like... If I come up against fire witch I will win and if I come up against marauder I will lose... It doesnt work like that.. only in a very minor degree. When I think of gear I just think of good basic gear mostly... Not a bunch of PvP counter stat items and counter skills... Those items are just in my inv at times. They were NEVER intended to be a part of my build... They are just items that you are FORCED to have for those situations. Its not like these items make you stronger OVERALL... they just make you stronger against a certain character, which is why they are not a part of your build. |
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I understand your point. But you are asuming that in 1 v 1 you always have a chance to counter your enemy, and that's not going to happen the 100% of the times.
And even if you can counter your opponent with an item on the fly, that does not make it fun. Because, the one who loses will always be frustrated because it was all determined by changing your items. The one who wins will not enjoy it either because he will know that he won because that he equiped an item that counters the enemy, which takes 1 round to figure out. Consider this - a random battle occurs: Melee Marauder vs Cold Witch. 1st round: Marauder frozen to dead. 2nd round: Marauder equips an item that grants 75% cold resistance and freeze immunity. Witch dies. 3rd round: Witch tries to use other skills, but the damage sucks because of the passives. She dies. 4th round: Witch is frustrated and the Marauder is bored because there is no challenge. 5th round: Same. Marauder wins yay, he equiped an item and the battle ended. Witch, is frustrated and posts in PvP feedback thread: NERF THE MARAUDERS!... Is that fun? No. How to make it better? In FFA, when you figure out that you cannot win against one player because he counters you, then you avoid him and search for a new guy. And since there will be many different builds, if you change your items to counter someone, then you will be vulnerable to another one. So, you will better equip something not to counter one but to be challenging agaisnt both of them. If you find you that you cannot win against anyone, whichs not likely you can just go back to town and enter into another FFA area. In TEAM vs TEAM, your friends will support you so that if there is a counterbuild against you, you will still stand a chance against him. Team vs Team is what works in this situations. But not a team made by random players, but a team made of players that know eachother. "The harder the game, the better." Last edited by Vold316#0180 on Apr 24, 2013, 10:04:38 AM
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" But you,re acting like this is whats going to happen in every single PvP duel that ever happens.. It doesnt work like that. Being stronger overall is the most important (Which is why most (but not all) casters suck in low level PvP... they are just too easy to counter and it seems like a different balance issue.. In cutthroat this will be alot harder to do and is a buff to casters because you dont get the option to stack wanderlust and all kinds of shit like that so fast... but in the long term it just seems like melee wins because it is the strongest OVERALL.. and not the strongest against a certain character.) Witches in PvP will depend a lot on luck since you dont know mow much fire resists that enemy is going to have... and thats what matters the most for the casters. In the terms of insane twinking they just dont get the option to be stronger overall.. they are forced into using one type of elemental damage that can be easily countered. Marauders on the other hand, will destroy witches as long as the marauder has those capped resists. This is the problem about casters because they sort of rely on hitting those resists. Now I know marauder hits with physcial.. But physical is just alot more of a consistent type of damage. Elemental damage is inconsistent because it will DEEESTRRROOOYYY people without resists even though they have ton of life. But Elemental damage will get DEEEEEESTTTTRROOYEEED if the player has those on the fly items or just overall has insane life and overcapped resists. Elemental penetration is by far the best casters got going for it... but even with that you can STILL counter it if you have INSANE amounts of counter items in your stash. Casters are very inconsistent in PvP because of the differences in resists. So for elemental damage I get what you mean when you say 50/50. So to put it shortly: Elemental damage is a cheap trick. (This is not bashing.) Counter items are a cheap trick. (This is not bashing.) Im pretty sure there is a reason that GGG added chaos resists flasks... Chaos damage is also a cheap trick that can DESTROY if u are unprepared and get DESTROYED if you are prepared... Physical is just very very consistent overall. |
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