I always skip LM until maps. Running campaign is already a fucking chore. Let me play the game how I want to. Hench not having the LM mandatory. "Fun" is also subjective, I have fun when I'm not running the campaign.
Its not that I don't want people to have fun, its that having an item you can get on a wand right after hillock and bringing it to red maps in your 90s and being viable is broken fundamentally.
No it's not "fundamentally broken" because most of the power of the build isn't coming from that item. Generally speaking, a single gem level isn't going to make or break a spell build. Most of the base damage for spells comes from the skill itself, so scaling them absolutely depends upon adding gem levels, but a single level isn't nearly as significant as you make it out to be. The value of each extra gem level also decreases as you gain more levels on your gems naturally, meaning the value of that +level weapon also decreases as you reach higher levels, the same as any other weapon. Also, just because you can technically get a +level wand right after hillock doesn't mean it's going to happen with any consistency; that modifier has a very low weight and so you have to be really really lucky to get one naturally that early in the campaign, let alone one that matches your main skill. You're much more likely to end up holding onto low level wands and crafting them when you're much farther along in the campaign or already into endgame and therefore have the currency to do so.
"
Lonnie455Rich wrote:
I challenge you. Make a marauder, craft an ilvl 5 2h axe and play to red maps with it without upgrading it.
Attack builds are inherently fundamentally different from spell builds, because their damage comes primarily from their weapon, not from the skill itself. This has always been the case, long predating the +level affixes, because it's at the core of the differences between attacks and spells in POE. Spells will always have an easier time at league start because they are less gear dependent. Attacks have a rougher start but typically have much greater scaling potential. The rougher start is the trade off for the greater scaling potential.
Check this out. Check out what the number 1 hc berserker is on day 2 of affliction league. Is he a melee skill? what weapon is he using? I wonder why he is 4 levels above the next guy. This guy is playing a spellcasting berserker and hes number 1 by 4 levels on day 2 in hc trade with an ilvl 5 wand. Make it make sense.
That's a clearly crafted wand, and an upgrade to his day 1 wand, which was an item level 21 carved wand with only the +1 phys spell affix, but lacking the phys dot multi of the day 2 wand. All you're seeing here is someone who clearly knows how to make the gear they need to most effectively scale their main skill.
A weapon for a spell build gets nothing from the attack stats on it, so the base itself isn't particularly important, the only thing benefiting a spell is potentially the implicit of the item. A high item level can also be hugely disadvantageous for a spell weapon, because it significantly increases the mod pool competing with the +level affixes, which are extremely rare modifiers that are typically more important than any other stat. Eventually, a higher level item with +level to all gems and +level to X gems (where X is the type of your main skill) along with good rolls on other important modifiers (e.g. DoT multi for a DoT spell) is BiS because those other important modifiers can have much higher affix tiers on a higher level item, but getting all that on a weapon is insanely difficult and expensive to craft, meanwhile for an early league weapon, low item level with just a single +level affix is typically your best option.
The situation is completely different for an attack build, because the base damage of the weapon actually matters and so the weapon has to be a high level base, and a high item level is important because the most important affixes for an attack weapon are relatively common modifiers with many tiers, and it's vitally important to get higher tiers of those modifiers. The crafting of a good attack weapon is nothing like the crafting of a good spell weapon.
It's also worth noting that there are recipes for +level weapons and for %phys weapons, and the cost of the %phys weapon recipe is trivial compared to the cost of the +level recipe, which makes sense because the %phys recipe needs to be repeated as you get better weapon bases, whereas you only need +level once (or twice if dual wielding). Getting a rustic sash and blacksmith's whetstone is very easy to do repeatedly throughout the campaign, but you might go the whole campaign without acquiring a total of 40% quality gems with the right tag for your main spell.
"
Lonnie455Rich wrote:
The fast as possible speed running stuff is what makes everyone want to skip the league mechanic. GGG wants you to interact with the league mechanic they have worked hard to create for us to enjoy.
The league mechanic isn't like a meal prepared by a relative who slaved all day in front of a hot oven for your benefit, it's a gimmick by a for-profit company to draw you in so you give them more money. We don't owe them engaging with the league mechanic when we don't want to engage with it. And I'm perfectly happy to engage with league mechanics in endgame, experiencing whatever the league mechanic is and listening to any lore it reveals are a big part of what draws me into playing each league, but the campaign at league start is already slow as fuck as it is without added bullshit getting in my way; I'll engage with the league mechanic in endgame, when it might actually be worth my time.
I'm not an imbecile I know how spells scale.
You actually just made my point seem even worse overall. If the +1 doesn't even matter like you say then spell builds don't even need a weapon to farm well into their 90s. Which is broken. I don't know how you think that it should be ok for it to work that way.
This type of scaling creates a mindset where you have no friction in campaign so you just skip everything you can. It makes it easy to just make it to maps with white/blue items with crafted res/life on them. So people will skip the league mechanic before it starts dropping endgame items.
This league mechanic, as far as I can tell you don't even have to interact with the thing at the door. You can just go straight through the door but there will be buffed monsters in the zone.
The bottom line, doing the league mechanic effects peoples d/hr, that's why they want to skip it. D/hr being the only important thing to people is the reason we have issues like the "trade issue" that is only an issue in sctrade, it literally doesn't effect any other singular game mode this game has to offer.
Right the only people who rush to map are people who use spell build and use the craft. No one else does it.
The act suck don't feel rewarding thats why people skip them
But im sure making them worst isn't going to make more people skip them that would never happen.
And yet you seem to have a problem with them scaling in ways fundamentally different from attack builds.
"
Lonnie455Rich wrote:
If the +1 doesn't even matter like you say
I didn't say that at all, I said it isn't the source of most of their damage.
"
Lonnie455Rich wrote:
then spell builds don't even need a weapon to farm well into their 90s
Technically yes, that's possible, because generally most of the damage for spell builds comes from sources other than their weapon. The same could be said of attack builds and rings. Generally most of the damage for attack builds comes from sources other than their rings, but it'd still be a sacrifice of build power to leave those gear slots empty.
"
Lonnie455Rich wrote:
Which is broken.
No, it's not. This isn't Last Epoch, spells and attacks don't scale off weapons in exactly the same way, this is Path of Exile, where they scale in fundamentally different ways. Weapons are not supposed to be the main source of damage for spells, that's a core part of how PoE is designed and has been since day 1. Weapons define the base damage of attacks, which makes them the single most important item to an attack build. The base damage for spells comes from other sources, with weapon bonuses to spell base damage (via either flat damage to spells or +level to gems affixes) being relatively small compared to what attacks get from weapons. It's not "broken" that the game was designed so that spells and attacks scale differently and require completely different gearing priorities.
"
Lonnie455Rich wrote:
I don't know how you think that it should be ok for it to work that way.
I don't understand how you think it's a problem for spells and attacks to actually be different things. The game you're looking for is Last Epoch, not PoE. In LE you can enjoy a near total lack of differentiation between attacks and spells; they scale almost identically, you can pretty much just replace "spell" with "melee" or "throwing" or "bow" and the affixes are otherwise the same across gear slots. It's not necessarily a bad thing, or a good thing, it's just simpler, and it's definitely not PoE.
"
Lonnie455Rich wrote:
This type of scaling creates a mindset where you have no friction in campaign so you just skip everything you can.
Tell me you've never leveled through the campaign on league start with spells without telling me you've never leveled through the campaign on league start with spells. Just because spell builds don't have to continuously upgrade weapons through the campaign the way attack builds do doesn't mean they don't have other problems they need to solve to make it endgame.
"
Lonnie455Rich wrote:
It makes it easy to just make it to maps with white/blue items with crafted res/life on them.
You do that on attack builds at league start too. Unless you get a lucky rare drop, your weapon's going to be magic because you use the vendor recipe for damage.
"
Lonnie455Rich wrote:
So people will skip the league mechanic before it starts dropping endgame items.
Yes, whether they're leveling with spells or attacks, that's what people do because the league mechanic is almost invariably a waste of time before endgame. If you make it to maps quicker, you're going to have more currency, and be able to get better gear upgrades earlier. Unless the league mechanic is so overtuned for rewards during the campaign that it's dropping pretty much perfect items for you or showering you in chaos and divines while you level, it's never going to be worth it to do the mechanic during the campaign. You will always be better off getting to endgame as quickly as possible, and then engaging with the league mechanic. That's just fundamental to how the game is designed and has nothing whatsoever to do with league starting spells versus attacks.
"
Lonnie455Rich wrote:
This league mechanic, as far as I can tell you don't even have to interact with the thing at the door. You can just go straight through the door but there will be buffed monsters in the zone.
Yes, which is annoying, but even with the monster buffs being randomized if you don't interact with it, interacting with the league mechanic is still very likely to slow you down more and so will not be worth it. The only thing that matters at league start is getting to endgame as quickly as possible, and then what matters is getting through endgame as quickly as possible, because that's how you make currency that can then fund gearing both your starter build and any other builds you might want to play.
"
Lonnie455Rich wrote:
The bottom line, doing the league mechanic effects peoples d/hr, that's why they want to skip it.
Yes. So what?
Fairgraves was a slave trafficker specialized in the kidnapping and transport of children. He was not "a good man".
Tell me you've never leveled through the campaign on league start with spells without telling me you've never leveled through the campaign on league start with spells. Just because spell builds don't have to continuously upgrade weapons through the campaign the way attack builds do doesn't mean they don't have other problems they need to solve to make it endgame.
would you bother and tell me what are these problems?
i have leveled 170 characters to 90+ (today bought my 178th slot and got a freebie armour, yay!)
and if anything, attack builds, esp melee-elemental-~templar struggle the most due to 0 access to generic life/mana leech. phys leech is cool but does nothing on glacial hammer, sure i can use lifetap+life leech|LGOH but that eats two links
i never had any issues with mana on casters, the +1 weapons (and later on shields) drop like candy. solving stun and freeze is pretty much the only issue, both solvable with flasks/panthenon
casters have better vaal skills, better ways of overlapping damage (orb of storms/brand/totem of sorts, even Siphon Trap is great as it heals and deals damage in one package), easier access to curses (int requirement is brutal for bottom part of the tree) and if you are on a budget of 3c and 7 alts having two slots you DO NOT have to touch until 2nd kitava is great economical advantage
oh, and if you actually want something more than +1/junk lvl5 wand: Nyca's Lantern/Axiom Perpetom/Bitterdream cost ~1c and will hard-carry well into maps
if i had to play POE as a racing pro, there is no way i would ever pick a skill that scales of the weapon. gem levels is where GGG affection is, they are cheaper to get and the game is STILL balanced around people NOT getting it. so it is free damage. boneshatter/trauma support are proof enough that it is the correct way
btw crafting attack weapons is futile excercise:
out of these two options, what can scale higher, cheaper and easier?
It would take me an eternity to reply to all that, and im not interested in it. because its pointless.
I don't like last epoch and its not a game i want to play. I'm not asking for homogenization, just normalization.
Caster friction is very minimal compared to melee friction.
And you obviously have never league started a melee either. I've never went into maps with a vendor recipe weapon. you farm a9 for the betrayal crafts then you use an essence of contempt on your base, hope for attack speed then craft on the %phy mod.
Skipping campaign isnt good for games.
non avoidable league mechanic in campaign may be better than you think.
Last edited by Lonnie455Rich#2087 on Mar 24, 2024, 6:16:00 PM
This post is supposed to be about league mechanic skip...
Affliction and Necropolis worst leagues ever. The current game design has slowly turned this game into a loot-shower fest, chase uniques are way too available; and obtaining chase items through stacked decks and valdo's boxes simply isn't fun.
It would take me an eternity to reply to all that, and im not interested in it. because its pointless.
I don't like last epoch and its not a game i want to play. I'm not asking for homogenization, just normalization.
Caster friction is very minimal compared to melee friction.
And you obviously have never league started a melee either. I've never went into maps with a vendor recipe weapon. you farm a9 for the betrayal crafts then you use an essence of contempt on your base, hope for attack speed then craft on the %phy mod.
Skipping campaign isnt good for games.
non avoidable league mechanic in campaign may be better than you think.
'' I ran out of argument but im too proud of myself to admit it ''
