The trade system is so BROKEN!

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trixxar wrote:

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jsuslak313 wrote:

#1: He said nothing about auto-trade INCREASING availability. He said the OPPOSITE
#2: He's simply pointing out the juxtaposition of "easily avoidable scam" in the current system vs. "actual systemically created mistakes" that would come from auto-trade. I totally agree it is FAR easier to accidentally throw thing in a tab that would IMMEDIATELY get pounced on, than to have to go through the entire trade process to confirm it and realize that you mis-priced or mis-clicked into a single-cost tab.
#3: BOTH can and already do happen.
#4: Items that WOULD have weight lose their value. Garbage is still garbage
#5: The POINT is that you get to control who you sell to. When only a handful of players are exchanging the top tier items (like he said), everyone KNOWS who is getting what regardless of whether you can see their names. The same people keep coming up over and over again.
#6: No....tencent has almost no creative control over (at least) our version of the game. Compare this version to Chinese version. One is GGG, one is tencent. WILDLY different game environments. Tencent owns the company, but GGG remains in the driver seat (for now).

I should ignore trolling but whatever.

1 - So you are saying auto-trade would decrease availability? This makes zero sense, and goes against the trade manifesto and common sense. Nonsensical.

2 - This is just a word jumble, its just as much a systemically created mistake that someone can move items in and out of the window that look like each other as someone choosing the wrong tab. Both are avoidable, you dont really care about one over the other. Its just a word salad.

3 - So you try to argue both sides of the fence, nonsensical again. Both already happen? But there is no automated trade feature so this is pure nonsense. The question is would automated trade either increase availability making corning the market harder, or would it make buying out the market easier. Your answer, to something that hasnt been tested, is that its already happening both ways. Sheer, utter nonsense.

4 - Again, arguing that some items lose value because... why? Because more items are posted, but then those items have the same value.

5 - How does this help anyone? Your whole argument is that you can see exactly whats in the trade so how does this effect you?

6 - Tencent has exactly as much control as they want, thats what happens when you own a business.


This has been the least logical post Ive responded to in a few years.

What you really should do is stop arguing in bad faith and knock it off with the logical fallacies. This isn't reddit.

1 - Right now, cornering the market on any specific item is nearly impossible simply because the time required for any individual trade, multiplied by the number of said trades needed, is enough time for more of those items to constantly re-enter circulation and for the market to adjust to what you're trying to do. If the time to buy an item goes down to literally fractions of a second, this is no longer true. Just think about it, logically, for thirty whole seconds: if you had unlimited currency and decided that you wanted to buy every single Starforge in the Affliction league, would you even be able to do it? You have to message THOUSANDS of people, enough times to get every single one of them to respond, including the ones who are currently offline at any given moment, you have to get them into your party, and you have to make the purchase. We're talking hours if not days of work to accomplish this. With instant one-click trading, you could do it in less than a minute.

2 - No it isn't. Again, argument ad absurdum. If you have two different systems, and one protects players against a mistake which is easy to make, and one which protects players against a mistake which is difficult to make, isn't it logical that the first system is better?

3 - The market value of an item isn't determined solely by its absolute value, it's also dictated by availability. A lot of people currently don't bother selling 5c items because the time it takes to make the sale is seen by them as a net loss. If that time becomes zero, suddenly everyone is now willing to sell those 5c items which would otherwise get vendored. Only they don't sell for 5c anymore, because EVERYONE has them listed and the market is flooded; they're now selling for alch shards.

4 - Both you and Jsus aren't getting what I meant by "figurative weight" which... fair enough, I should have probably explained it better. I was referring to the fact that the items feel "real" when picking them up, examining, and exchanging them is an actual process. "Substantiality" is probably a better word for it.

5 - If you've never done trading at the very, very top end you might not understand why this is an issue, but it very much is to some people. There's a thread about it at the top of F&S right now, in fact, I'll edit a link to it HERE.

6 - As Jsus said, GGG has creative control over the game (currently) but your argument here defeats itself. I said that there is no one-click trading because the people who run the game don't want there to be. Saying "yeah but it's someone ELSE who runs the game, not the person you said" doesn't change the underlying logic behind what I said.

sometimes you feel like you are playing with blind people

i dropped a Pariah earlier in the league and decided to vaal it for a white socket.. hit something like % increased strenght or something, totally bricking the item.

throw it in my 100c tab and a dude bought it like a week later when the prizes started to skyrocket

he then accused me for scamming... told him to scroll up in his chat and check again what he whispered for

never heard about from the dude again

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ARealLifeCaribbeanPirate wrote:

What you really should do is stop arguing in bad faith and knock it off with the logical fallacies. This isn't reddit.

1 - Right now, cornering the market on any specific item is nearly impossible simply because the time required for any individual trade, multiplied by the number of said trades needed, is enough time for more of those items to constantly re-enter circulation and for the market to adjust to what you're trying to do. If the time to buy an item goes down to literally fractions of a second, this is no longer true. Just think about it, logically, for thirty whole seconds: if you had unlimited currency and decided that you wanted to buy every single Starforge in the Affliction league, would you even be able to do it? You have to message THOUSANDS of people, enough times to get every single one of them to respond, including the ones who are currently offline at any given moment, you have to get them into your party, and you have to make the purchase. We're talking hours if not days of work to accomplish this. With instant one-click trading, you could do it in less than a minute.

2 - No it isn't. Again, argument ad absurdum. If you have two different systems, and one protects players against a mistake which is easy to make, and one which protects players against a mistake which is difficult to make, isn't it logical that the first system is better?

3 - The market value of an item isn't determined solely by its absolute value, it's also dictated by availability. A lot of people currently don't bother selling 5c items because the time it takes to make the sale is seen by them as a net loss. If that time becomes zero, suddenly everyone is now willing to sell those 5c items which would otherwise get vendored. Only they don't sell for 5c anymore, because EVERYONE has them listed and the market is flooded; they're now selling for alch shards.

4 - Both you and Jsus aren't getting what I meant by "figurative weight" which... fair enough, I should have probably explained it better. I was referring to the fact that the items feel "real" when picking them up, examining, and exchanging them is an actual process. "Substantiality" is probably a better word for it.

5 - If you've never done trading at the very, very top end you might not understand why this is an issue, but it very much is to some people. There's a thread about it at the top of F&S right now, in fact, I'll edit a link to it HERE.

6 - As Jsus said, GGG has creative control over the game (currently) but your argument here defeats itself. I said that there is no one-click trading because the people who run the game don't want there to be. Saying "yeah but it's someone ELSE who runs the game, not the person you said" doesn't change the underlying logic behind what I said.

I appreciate you rephrasing / restating what you wrote, a lot of intelligent and good points here.

1 - Yes, agree with you mechanically it becomes easier. However, both common sense and the trade manifesto (so GGG and Chris specifically) note that far more items would be for sale without a system that intentionally feels terrible. Therefore, you would need significantly more currency to corner anything. You would also create more incentive to farm for Starforge if its worth a lot more, increasing supply which you would have to keep buying out to corner things. Mechanically, easier. Functionally, it would take significantly more resources to corner the market if a lot more people use the market. Agree / disagree?

2 - How is putting something in the wrong tab easier than not catching when someone swaps that looks exactly similar (but worth far less) in a trade window? At least your own tabs, you can label them and use unique colors, The trade window doesnt allow you to label items with unique colors and names. I suppose if you rush at this but you are slow with trade, sure one is easier. But then if you rush at trade and are more careful with selling, the opposite is true, yes?

3 - If you arent changing the incoming supply of chaos and divines found, then there would still be people who have 5c to spend on an item slot and therefore there will still be items worth 1c, 5c, 10c, 100c etc. If more items are for sale, yes the average stats provided by an item should go up, but you are just as likely as anyone else to find the items you can still sell for 5c.

Can you explain why you think if you used to find stuff worth 5c, why not someone else would be more likely to find better stuff and you would only be making alchs? Shouldnt the distribution of sellers and buyers and the total pool of money be the same? Honest question.

4 - I see what you mean, if you have to take time to trade an item, i agree with you. However, the same argument was made for years about not stacking currency, because that reduced weight. I have never met anyone who didnt think the QoL improvement was not better than 'weight'. So, not disagreeing completely.

5 - No, I don't trade top end, top trade I ever made was 25 divines which is peanuts. Im not going to disagree or counter but I will say I don't think a system which pleases the top 1% of traders at the expense of the other 99% is very useful. (or top 10% and bottom 90% if you prefer)

6 - This is still not a good argument. You are essentially saying "nothing should change because it is the way it is and you dont run the game". But the forums are here for game discussion, are they not? Is this not the place to discuss problems with the game? Yes, GGG can in theory do anything they want, they could make PoE a pokemon game or a FPS, and you could defend it saying "its their game". That, while true, is not particularly useful either.

"

exsea wrote:

it really makes me wonder if you are a scammer. i do not know why anyone would want to victim blame. dude.

No ive never scammed anyone, nor will I ever try to. Its not worth it. I myself have been scammed exactly once in my entire PoE career, 100% MY fault.

Victim Blaming? You are damn right I'm gonna victim blame when you accept a trade that isn't what you want. After passing all the safeguards. After having an INFINITE amount of time to verify what you are buying. It is YOUR fault. That is pure fact. Maybe I would concede its not 100% your fault, but it sure is close.

If you want to trade for a mirror or a mirror item, and the cost of the trade exceeds the boundaries of what you KNOW you can fit into the trade window. YES YES YES I would absolutely trade for fragments or other higher value items! I would NEVER EVER EVER fill a window with 600 divines, press the green checkmark, and then.....blindly trust a total stranger. That is stupid, plain and simple. That is equivalent in my eyes to giving your PIN and credit card to someone on the street and trusting they aren't going to go to town with your card.

You call me a boomer because I point out stupidity....I will turn that right back around: are you a millennial who is utterly incapable of taking responsibility for your own actions? It's always someone ELSE's fault? No.....it is your fault, plain and simple. You decided to bypass or ignore the safeguards. You decided to give your PIN to that other person. That's on you. Sorry not sorry

"

Sulena wrote:

Totally agree and so many posts have been made about this topic but I have no hope that ggg is ever going to do anything about it

Meanwhile we learned a month or so ago that they are adding instant buyout (essentially an Auction house) to POE2 and (probably) POE1.

"

jsuslak313 wrote:

"

exsea wrote:

it really makes me wonder if you are a scammer. i do not know why anyone would want to victim blame. dude.

No ive never scammed anyone, nor will I ever try to. Its not worth it. I myself have been scammed exactly once in my entire PoE career, 100% MY fault.

Victim Blaming? You are damn right I'm gonna victim blame when you accept a trade that isn't what you want. After passing all the safeguards. After having an INFINITE amount of time to verify what you are buying. It is YOUR fault. That is pure fact. Maybe I would concede its not 100% your fault, but it sure is close.

I'm not going to go "100%" unless its their 2nd time being scammed by the same process. BUT, mostly I agree. So when did accepting ANY responsibility at all or acknowledging any cause and effect become victim blaming? It really is ridiculous how far things have gone.

The BEST thing the victim can do is accept their part in screwing up, because then they can BE MORE CAREFUL. Instead of being an "easy mark".

Yeah sure the scammer is the POS, but "fool me once" and other pragmatic and critical thinking should be taught in schools FFS. Because most parents these days seem to be teaching none.

I'll say it for the thousandth time. If you hit the trade button and got scammed its your fault.

Do better the next time. Cortex bait and switch is probably the easiest to fall victim to. They even added the integer value of currency you have in inventory or places in the ui. They're literally making it better/easier and people are still complaining smh.

"

ARealLifeCaribbeanPirate wrote:

3 - The market value of an item isn't determined solely by its absolute value, it's also dictated by availability. A lot of people currently don't bother selling 5c items because the time it takes to make the sale is seen by them as a net loss. If that time becomes zero, suddenly everyone is now willing to sell those 5c items which would otherwise get vendored. Only they don't sell for 5c anymore, because EVERYONE has them listed and the market is flooded; they're now selling for alch shards.

4 - Both you and Jsus aren't getting what I meant by "figurative weight" which... fair enough, I should have probably explained it better. I was referring to the fact that the items feel "real" when picking them up, examining, and exchanging them is an actual process. "Substantiality" is probably a better word for it.

This is the deeper issue of trading in Videogames. Play Lost Ark for a couple weeks, its items do not FEEL LIKE ITEMS AT ALL. They have the same weight and appeal as generic paper carnival ride tickets.

Why? because there's almost no reason to look at them, they:

Autoloot
No ID'ing
Look identical
Take up exactly the same inventory space
have almost no "good rolls" or rare cool outcomes
spam your inventory endlessly and become annoying

Autovendor for inconsequential fragments of trash
can be instantly listed/sold for almost no opportunity cost (PEON's but who cares) and are generally nearly worthless to do so (time better spent doing ANYTHING else) because values are trivial

And this is a system that actually HAS SOME RESISTANCE (Peons)


EVERY step in this direction. every. single. one. IS A MISTAKE AND I WISH CHRIS WOULD TELL JOHNATHAN TO REVERSE COURSE on instant buyout with gold because thats a BIG step in the direction of less valuable items. Dump tabs full of EVERY item that's not meta listed for transmutes or whatevers the lowest possible value currency.

Pick one:

"cool I love it when I can buy almost everything in the game for 1 transmute"

Vs:

"I hate it when every item on the ground is worthless unless its Mageblood"

YOU CAN NOT HAVE BOTH. Especially not with GGG who historically are entirely incapable of balancing ANYTHING.

Buyout in POE2 (and probably therefore POE1) is a mistake. its a step towards spreadsheet items. Appeasing the "masses" who don't understand game design is EXACTLY what you do if you want POE2 to be more like D4 and D3.

Not pandering is why POE1 is the best ARPG ever made. It's increasingly worrisome that recent POE2 interviews have stated that GGG needs to start pandering more to popular opinions as opposed to making the best game they can, and letting the players adapt. Again D3 and D4 are what happens when you start listening to "I want everything and I want it now" people who don't give a shit about the long term health of your game... they just want their MB and Mirrors on day 2.

"

alhazred70 wrote:

"

ARealLifeCaribbeanPirate wrote:

3 - The market value of an item isn't determined solely by its absolute value, it's also dictated by availability. A lot of people currently don't bother selling 5c items because the time it takes to make the sale is seen by them as a net loss. If that time becomes zero, suddenly everyone is now willing to sell those 5c items which would otherwise get vendored. Only they don't sell for 5c anymore, because EVERYONE has them listed and the market is flooded; they're now selling for alch shards.

4 - Both you and Jsus aren't getting what I meant by "figurative weight" which... fair enough, I should have probably explained it better. I was referring to the fact that the items feel "real" when picking them up, examining, and exchanging them is an actual process. "Substantiality" is probably a better word for it.

This is the deeper issue of trading in Videogames. Play Lost Ark for a couple weeks, its items do not FEEL LIKE ITEMS AT ALL. They have the same weight and appeal as generic paper carnival ride tickets.

Why? because there's almost no reason to look at them, they:

Autoloot
No ID'ing
Look identical
Take up exactly the same inventory space
have almost no "good rolls" or rare cool outcomes
spam your inventory endlessly and become annoying

Autovendor for inconsequential fragments of trash
can be instantly listed/sold for almost no opportunity cost (PEON's but who cares) and are generally nearly worthless to do so (time better spent doing ANYTHING else) because values are trivial

And this is a system that actually HAS SOME RESISTANCE (Peons)


EVERY step in this direction every. single. one. IS A MISTAKE AND I WISH CHRIS WOULD TELL JOHNATHAN TO REVERSE COURSE.

Buyout in POE2 (and probably therefore POE1) is a mistake. its a step towards spreadsheet items. Appeasing the "masses" who don't understand game design is EXACTLY what you do if you want POE2 to be more like D4 and D3.

Not pandering is why POE1 is the best ARPG ever made. It's increasingly worrisome that recent POE2 podcasts have stated that GGG might start pandering more.

100%

One of d4's (many) failures is from armchair devs. Does everyone remember the teleport to dungeon feature everyone begged for, then a week later everyone said it was a mistake.
Players don't really know what they want.

This game is great because of the great bald mans vision. It is what it is. Let chris do his thing and the game will be great. If you like phone games then stay out of the feedback section. (fwiw last epoch feels like an ok game for the first 100 hrs then it feels about as bad as d3)

ITT: boomers normalizing scamming.