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If we don't move the goalposts
Can't really move the goal post when it's not really "set" from the beginning. The term "casual player" isn't the same as it was 10 years ago, and it's certainly not a term set in stone with a clear definition.
Debating semantics is often as productive as punching someone in the face, but in this case, it's pretty important as a premise for the discussion. And If you or I were to 'define' the casual player, we would both draw a subjective conclusion based on our personal bias. Why? Because we can't look this up, especially when it comes to hours played or something like that - because, again, there's not a set definition. So moving the goal post? Your goalpost? My goalpost? Because there is no "the" goalpost.
People define "casual" anyway they seem fit, be that to support their narrative or debunk someone else's. So no matter how this discussion is being played, the OP should (of course) define his subjective interpretation of what a casual is, before asking how that person could enjoy the game. He's talking about Ubers, for crying out loud... And currency per minute. And even my cat (which I don't have) could see that there's TONS of content to be played and enjoyed without worrying (or even thinking/knowing) about Ubers, currency per hour or "optimal builds".
It's about "goals". And a casual player should have casual goals, not measure themselves up against non-casual players, Ubers or currency per hour. I have never beaten an Uber boss, nor do I look at currency-per-hour statistics. I play what I want to play, sometimes META shit, sometimes not. And I play the game at my own pace. Do I feel like seeking knowledge to enhance my gaming experience, I do so. Sometimes, I play for 10 hours a week, sometimes 2, but when I have some time off from family, job or other hobbies, I can play 15-20 hours. Am I a casual?
Sometimes, just sometimes, you should really consider adapting to the world, instead of demanding that the world adapts to you. Last edited by Phrazz on Oct 22, 2023, 11:29:18 AM
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Posted byPhrazzon Oct 22, 2023, 11:25:49 AM
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If we don't move the goalposts
Can't really move the goal post when it's not really "set" from the beginning. The term "casual player" isn't the same as it was 10 years ago, and it's certainly not a term set in stone with a clear definition.
Debating semantics is often as productive as punching someone in the face, but in this case, it's pretty important as a premise for the discussion. And If you or I were to 'define' the casual player, we would both draw a subjective conclusion based on our personal bias. Why? Because we can't look this up, especially when it comes to hours played or something like that - because, again, there's not a set definition. So moving the goal post? Your goalpost? My goalpost? Because there is no "the" goalpost.
People define "casual" anyway they seem fit, be that to support their narrative or debunk someone else's. So no matter how this discussion is being played, the OP should (of course) define his subjective interpretation of what a casual is, before asking how that person could enjoy the game. He's talking about Ubers, for crying out loud... And currency per minute. And even my cat (which I don't have) could see that there's TONS of content to be played and enjoyed without worrying (or even thinking/knowing) about Ubers, currency per hour or "optimal builds".
It's about "goals". And a casual player should have casual goals, not measure themselves up against non-casual players, Ubers or currency per hour. I have never beaten an Uber boss, nor do I look at currency-per-hour statistics. I play what I want to play, sometimes META shit, sometimes not. And I play the game at my own pace. Do I feel like seeking knowledge to enhance my gaming experience, I do so. Sometimes, I play for 10 hours a week, sometimes 2, but when I have some time off from family, job or other hobbies, I can play 15-20 hours. Am I a casual?
Excellent post and good point !
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Posted byxaerobbon Oct 22, 2023, 12:03:21 PM
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If we don't move the goalposts
Can't really move the goal post when it's not really "set" from the beginning. The term "casual player" isn't the same as it was 10 years ago, and it's certainly not a term set in stone with a clear definition.
Debating semantics is often as productive as punching someone in the face, but in this case, it's pretty important as a premise for the discussion. And If you or I were to 'define' the casual player, we would both draw a subjective conclusion based on our personal bias. Why? Because we can't look this up, especially when it comes to hours played or something like that - because, again, there's not a set definition. So moving the goal post? Your goalpost? My goalpost? Because there is no "the" goalpost.
The goalpost was moved.
If you ask that question 20 years ago, your casual gamers may play video games around 4~6 hours per week and hardcore gamers would play 20+ hours per week.
If you ask it right now, your casual gamers may play video games around 8~12 hours per week and the hardcore gamers could play 35~40 hours per week. Exponential increase in game time. Hardcore gamers clock as much time playing video game as a full time job. Maybe it is their full time job.
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It's about "goals". And a casual player should have casual goals, not measure themselves up against non-casual players, Ubers or currency per hour. I have never beaten an Uber boss, nor do I look at currency-per-hour statistics. I play what I want to play, sometimes META shit, sometimes not. And I play the game at my own pace. Do I feel like seeking knowledge to enhance my gaming experience, I do so. Sometimes, I play for 10 hours a week, sometimes 2, but when I have some time off from family, job or other hobbies, I can play 15-20 hours. Am I a casual?
Since the change in standard, you are probably a casual.
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Posted byawesome999on Oct 22, 2023, 1:06:02 PM
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If we don't move the goalposts
Can't really move the goal post when it's not really "set" from the beginning. The term "casual player" isn't the same as it was 10 years ago, and it's certainly not a term set in stone with a clear definition.
Debating semantics is often as productive as punching someone in the face, but in this case, it's pretty important as a premise for the discussion. And If you or I were to 'define' the casual player, we would both draw a subjective conclusion based on our personal bias. Why? Because we can't look this up, especially when it comes to hours played or something like that - because, again, there's not a set definition. So moving the goal post? Your goalpost? My goalpost? Because there is no "the" goalpost.
The goalpost was moved.
If you ask that question 20 years ago, your casual gamers may play video games around 4~6 hours per week and hardcore gamers would play 20+ hours per week.
If you ask it right now, your casual gamers may play video games around 8~12 hours per week and the hardcore gamers could play 35~40 hours per week. Exponential increase in game time. Hardcore gamers clock as much time playing video game as a full time job. Maybe it is their full time job.
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It's about "goals". And a casual player should have casual goals, not measure themselves up against non-casual players, Ubers or currency per hour. I have never beaten an Uber boss, nor do I look at currency-per-hour statistics. I play what I want to play, sometimes META shit, sometimes not. And I play the game at my own pace. Do I feel like seeking knowledge to enhance my gaming experience, I do so. Sometimes, I play for 10 hours a week, sometimes 2, but when I have some time off from family, job or other hobbies, I can play 15-20 hours. Am I a casual?
Since the change in standard, you are probably a casual.
Thinking about this, I think the casual/hardcore debate has more to do with POE knowledge that then translates into skill rather than how long you play. Think about it, would you really call someone a hardcore that plays 40 hours a week but doesn't use any sort of guide, PoB, website, or anything else, and just flounders around in the game? Part of being hardcore, at least to me, has been bettering yourself, either by improving your skill or game knowledge and making what you do as efficient as possible. Knowledge and a bit of skill is now the defining factor between hardcore and casual, not time. While time is still important, it isn't nearly as important as it is in other games.
Last edited by jdp29 on Oct 22, 2023, 2:11:36 PM
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Posted byjdp29on Oct 22, 2023, 2:11:08 PM
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If you ask it right now, your casual gamers may play video games around 8~12...
Maybe...
And 12 hours a week is more than enough to do 'most' things in the game within a league, as long as you're willing to seek some knowledge and tips/tricks. And I think a lot of casual players are willing to do this. It's AT LEAST enough to be able to "enjoy" the game.
Sometimes, just sometimes, you should really consider adapting to the world, instead of demanding that the world adapts to you.
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Posted byPhrazzon Oct 22, 2023, 3:09:11 PM
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Thinking about this, I think the casual/hardcore debate has more to do with POE knowledge that then translates into skill rather than how long you play. Think about it, would you really call someone a hardcore that plays 40 hours a week but doesn't use any sort of guide, PoB, website, or anything else, and just flounders around in the game? Part of being hardcore, at least to me, has been bettering yourself, either by improving your skill or game knowledge and making what you do as efficient as possible. Knowledge and a bit of skill is now the defining factor between hardcore and casual, not time. While time is still important, it isn't nearly as important as it is in other games.
Nope.
"Hardcore" has nothing to do with skills or even knowledge. A person having a very strong belief or interest in something or a lot of determination to do it, or something to that degree is "Hardcore". It is the great commitment and priority to do something rather than their skills or knowledge at something.
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Posted byawesome999on Oct 22, 2023, 3:54:25 PM
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Back to the essence of the original topic, the answer is that casuals can't really access what originally made the game fun.
There's lots of cool skills and interactions in the game but more and more of them have shifted to either a handful of difficult to acquire uniques, or the type of crafting that requires a player to become a retail store to acquire the wealth to craft themselves, or just buy the item outright.
The accessibility gap is horrendous if you don't buy into GGGs philosophy of trading. Yes, there's plenty of SSF players that do fine, but there's a very large group of players that don't. Let's not even discuss the cabal of TFT and that GGG are too lazy to establish their own system.
Objectively the game is an absolute mess right now and could do with a thorough renovation. So many legacy elements that no longer work, or never really worked to begin with. Currency is in a terrible place now as its original purpose of crafting is pointless unless you're using fossils or essences due to the ridiculous amount of attributes that can roll.
Archnemesis is a fine example of a solution that didn't fit the problem and consequently ruined the game for a lot of people that weren't actually the ones GGG were trying to impact. That's just bad game design and exceedingly bad management due to sunk cost fallacy or ego, take your pick. I mean, Delve and certain AN modifiers are just outright trolling, not challenging.
Ever since "The Vision" became a thing, the game has gone in a direction that is not player friendly.
I hope PoE 2 is a success, and that GGG may one day release a stand alone version of PoE 1 with legacy patches. I would happily play 3.10 patch version all the time and not look back.
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you just cant pick a random skill, slap 5 decent supports, have a decent skill tree, get all your watchstones and do red maps comfortably. definitely not a new player friendly environment.
to succeed you need to use gimmicks like heatshiver hat, kaom gloves and such. problem is the game is balanced around that and new players have impossible learning curve instead of being able to progress into using gimmicks at later stage.
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Posted byferal_natureon Oct 22, 2023, 9:55:44 PM
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Thinking about this, I think the casual/hardcore debate has more to do with POE knowledge that then translates into skill rather than how long you play. Think about it, would you really call someone a hardcore that plays 40 hours a week but doesn't use any sort of guide, PoB, website, or anything else, and just flounders around in the game? Part of being hardcore, at least to me, has been bettering yourself, either by improving your skill or game knowledge and making what you do as efficient as possible. Knowledge and a bit of skill is now the defining factor between hardcore and casual, not time. While time is still important, it isn't nearly as important as it is in other games.
Nope.
"Hardcore" has nothing to do with skills or even knowledge. A person having a very strong belief or interest in something or a lot of determination to do it, or something to that degree is "Hardcore". It is the great commitment and priority to do something rather than their skills or knowledge at something.
So what happens if that sort of player sucks? Would you really call them hardcore?
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Posted byjdp29on Oct 23, 2023, 12:57:01 AM
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So what happens if that sort of player sucks? Would you really call them hardcore?
Nothing. They can keep on playing. They are extremely hardcore if they continue to play while sucking at it.
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Posted byawesome999on Oct 23, 2023, 8:09:10 AM
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