why PoE is dying

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DarthSki44 wrote:

I know we have discussed this prior, and for whatever reason you don't appear to believe that Twitch and targeted online journalism, that I mention, qualify as casual marketing? I mean of course it does? You honestly believe there are harcorde ARPG players that dont know about PoE they are trying to reach? Or what are you saying / disagreeing with? If you sponsor a variety streamer for example, one that doesn't play PoE often, or at all, what do you think their audience represents? (on average). The same goes for website article embargos and planned league marketing. These go to large publishers that report on all kinds of games and news. They are casting a wide net here, far beyond what their niche core gamer is.

Exactly; a wide net. Not "casual" specific. Not "hardcore" specific. But to gamers. And no, I don't really think there's that many hardcore ARPG gamers out there that haven't tried PoE. Do I think there's hardcore non-ARPG players out there that can find PoE fun? Of course I do. Do I think there are non-hardcore gamers that could find PoE fun as is? Of course I do. Do I think some gamers could become a more dedicated once they try PoE? Yes.

Look, you are spinning this 360 degrees just to turn it into a negative. First you make up something (GGG are targeting casual players specifically. They are not, they are targeting all kinds of players through medias where we find all kinds of players), just to fabricate a result (they are surprised when casual players leave). None of which is true? I can't remember seeing any media advertisement where they didn't mention something in the line of "...a hardcore ARPG game". I feel they've always been pretty open and direct about that.

You always have do this spin. "It would be totally OK for PoE to be this niche game, IF X or Y", where X and Y are non-issues you just slap on top. But hey, you called yourself "cynical" the other day, so it probably fits.

PoE is a game. Played by gamers. They have to advertise where gamers are. You cannot possible disagree with that. Because PoE is a pretty niche game - and F2P - 'most' people trying it, will probably move on. Some will stick, both hardcore gamers and not.

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Phrazz wrote:

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DarthSki44 wrote:

I know we have discussed this prior, and for whatever reason you don't appear to believe that Twitch and targeted online journalism, that I mention, qualify as casual marketing? I mean of course it does? You honestly believe there are harcorde ARPG players that dont know about PoE they are trying to reach? Or what are you saying / disagreeing with? If you sponsor a variety streamer for example, one that doesn't play PoE often, or at all, what do you think their audience represents? (on average). The same goes for website article embargos and planned league marketing. These go to large publishers that report on all kinds of games and news. They are casting a wide net here, far beyond what their niche core gamer is.

Exactly; a wide net. Not "casual" specific. Not "hardcore" specific. But to gamers. And no, I don't really think there's that many hardcore ARPG gamers out there that haven't tried PoE. Do I think there's hardcore non-ARPG players out there that can find PoE fun? Of course I do. Do I think there are non-hardcore gamers that could find PoE fun as is? Of course I do. Do I think some gamers could become a more dedicated once they try PoE? Yes.

Look, you are spinning this 360 degrees just to turn it into a negative. First you make up something (GGG are targeting casual players specifically. They are not, they are targeting all kinds of players through medias where we find all kinds of players), just to fabricate a result (they are surprised when casual players leave). None of which is true?

You always have do this spin. "It would be totally OK for PoE to be this niche game, IF X or Y", where X and Y are non-issues you just slap on top. But hey, you called yourself "cynical" the other day, so it probably fits.

PoE is a game. Played by gamers. They have to advertise where gamers are. You cannot possible disagree with that. Because PoE is a pretty niche game - and F2P - 'most' people trying it, will probably move on. Some will stick, both hardcore gamers and not.

I'm not spinning anything. PoE isn't new player or casual friendly. Full stop. That's not spin. It's not even negative. PoE can be whatever GGG wants it to be.

The problem as it were, is that PoE is now market saturated over the last 10 years amongst the more hardcore arpg genre players. What GGG is doing now is appealing to a wider base of mostly casual gamers. This is causing issues because of how the game is designed. It's why you see the type of "complaints" you see more commonly. Surely you have seen the uptick on what I'm taking about since 3.13 especially.

I am definitely cynical here because I honestly think GGG doesn't want to desgin the game for average / casual players, but they want their money. In fact they probably want a more Ruthless style of game, but know that won't be as financially successful. When they seemingly try to paint themselevs victims of the resulting atmosphere they have created, It's extremely annoying. I'd say GGG is just as cynical as I am lol, just for the money.

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DarthSki44 wrote:

What GGG is doing now is appealing to a wider base of mostly casual gamers.

....

I am definitely cynical here because I honestly think GGG doesn't want to desgin the game for average / casual players, but they want their money.

They want their money? If there is a game that wants casual players money, it is Diablo 4. A collector's edition but without an executable.

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Reinhart wrote:

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DarthSki44 wrote:

What GGG is doing now is appealing to a wider base of mostly casual gamers.

....

I am definitely cynical here because I honestly think GGG doesn't want to desgin the game for average / casual players, but they want their money.

They want their money? If there is a game that wants casual players money, it is Diablo 4. A collector's edition but without an executable.

Yes of course but D4 is specifically developed with casual gamers in mind. In fact it was developed for consoles first (which I found out is actually larger than the PC market now and that blew my mind)

D4 was never going to be what PoE is/was. It isnt even trying.

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DarthSki44 wrote:

The problem as it were, is that PoE is now market saturated over the last 10 years amongst the more hardcore arpg genre players. What GGG is doing now is appealing to a wider base of mostly casual gamers.

...But also potential long-term players. It isn't really a problem, unless you're trying hard to make it one. If you view new players coming into the forums to give negative feedback like "this game is crap/not for me" as a "problem", then what are you? :P

You're doing it again: "PoE can be whatever it wats to be, the problem is X", X being a non-issue. Just let PoE be whatever it wats be.

Again: Should GGG totally stop marketing their product?

I think someone has a misunderstanding about marketing - it's not just to reach new people. Coca Cola has 100% logo/brand recognition around the world. There is no one new to reach. They still advertise.

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Phrazz wrote:

Again: Should GGG totally stop marketing their product?

I see where you are trying to go with this, but that's so reductive. Im not going to advocate for an abandonment of their marketing efforts. Thats dumb. Anyways, its not as if all marketing and advertising campaigns work well, nor is it a binary, flawless or total failure, either. There is nuance. There is targeting. There are mistakes (see Bud Light)

How they are marketing now isn't working beyond sheer F2P volume (and the resulting retention on average is worse). It's not attracting the type of players they actually "want", or at least that how it seems statistically. Is Crucible really PoE's greatest league by a long shot? I'd say no despite the records they broke. Maybe others feel differently. I concede that.

So in short, for me, should they? Probably. Will they though? No fucking chance.

I think they should at least reduce the marketing campaign as a priority given the game experience currently. If they modify the onbaording then it would make more sense. And Hell maybe they are with PoE2's campaign. Right now, it flat out isnt helpful beyond whatever temporary money it provides. And I say temporary because I suspect we will be entering an all-time low point for them here shortly. I think there are quite a few casual PoE players that are begrudgingly here because they didn't really have good options. That is changing in 3 weeks.

Let's see how they handle this D4 period moving towards whenever PoE2 comes out. It's not going to be pretty I don't think.

Edit: just saw this on reddit...interesting to say the least.

https://www.reddit.com/r/pathofexile/comments/13etmtv/ggg_at_summer_game_fest/?utm_source=share&utm_medium=android_app&utm_name=androidcss&utm_term=1&utm_content=share_button

The end game and advanced crafting can be for the more advanced, time invested player, but I don't see the game as new player hostile or unfriendly.

The game holds your hand from the start with tutorials and slowly introducing content from past leagues as you progress through the acts.

Any new player interested in this genre can surely handle that and then invest more time/effort into learning the more advanced systems if they like what they've seen so far.

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DarthSki44 wrote:

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Reinhart wrote:

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DarthSki44 wrote:

What GGG is doing now is appealing to a wider base of mostly casual gamers.

....

I am definitely cynical here because I honestly think GGG doesn't want to desgin the game for average / casual players, but they want their money.

They want their money? If there is a game that wants casual players money, it is Diablo 4. A collector's edition but without an executable.

Yes of course but D4 is specifically developed with casual gamers in mind. In fact it was developed for consoles first (which I found out is actually larger than the PC market now and that blew my mind)

D4 was never going to be what PoE is/was. It isnt even trying.

This I can agree with, D4 is never going to be what POE is was, and won't even try...It is already better , fresh and adapts to a broader audience than POE.

Maybe it will suck, maybe it not be as good as advertised, but it will live longer and have more players than POE ever had in any league launch...

Despite the attempts of showing "record numbers", in a desperate way to make people feel like "everything is ok", this league was not nearly as good as it was intended before a competitor mogul launches the game that everyone thinks it will bury you.

So yea, casual or not casual D4 will be fine, and played by people. At least Chris's dream to have a smaller audience of players will be fulfilled :)))

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superbomb1967 wrote:

The end game and advanced crafting can be for the more advanced, time invested player, but I don't see the game as new player hostile or unfriendly.

The game holds your hand from the start with tutorials and slowly introducing content from past leagues as you progress through the acts.

Any new player interested in this genre can surely handle that and then invest more time/effort into learning the more advanced systems if they like what they've seen so far.

Well numbers talk and apparently they cannot.

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DarthSki44 wrote:

I think they should at least reduce the marketing campaign as a priority given the game experience currently.

...

Let's see how they handle this D4 period moving towards whenever PoE2 comes out. It's not going to be pretty I don't think.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=163lo0YCVK8