D4 no gud, send me poe2 thx

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DarthSki44 wrote:

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Nubatron wrote:

I think the main draw of the 4.0 expansion will be the new acts and new ascendancies.

Perhaps, but their track record here isn't spectacular. Hell half the ascendancies choices now are poorly balanced and not played much. Adding 12-16 more could be super problematic. That said I generally agree. I've long said PoE should get more specialized classes and create identities for your character. This is a good way to do that.

The acts are mostly irrelevant in terms of the engame loops, and even then, the endgame isn't new. It's shared with PoE1. So if all that really happens is people choose the new path to get to endgame, is that really a "draw" after the initial experience? Maybe I guess?

3.0 pulled in (back?) a lot of players relatively speaking at the time and that was largely an expansion of Acts 5-10. The end game changed as well but that's the normal loop around here. The end game has changed quite a few times since 3.0. I wouldn't be surprised if it changed with 4.0 as well.

I've lost track of all the end game loops since 3.0....

Shaper/Guardians
Shaper/Guardians + Elder/Guardians + Map Influence (Elder Ring Shenanigans)
Uber Elder
Sirus/Conquerors
Eat of Worlds + Searing Exarch
Ubers

I'm sure there is stuff I'm missing. All that to say, I'm sure the end game loop will change again. Another loop starting with 4.0 wouldn't be shocking.

In terms of track record, I think the 3.0 release was pretty smooth from what I remember. It wasn't one of the train wreck releases. It was a long time ago though, so maybe my memory is failing me.

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Nubatron wrote:

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DarthSki44 wrote:

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Nubatron wrote:

I think the main draw of the 4.0 expansion will be the new acts and new ascendancies.

Perhaps, but their track record here isn't spectacular. Hell half the ascendancies choices now are poorly balanced and not played much. Adding 12-16 more could be super problematic. That said I generally agree. I've long said PoE should get more specialized classes and create identities for your character. This is a good way to do that.

The acts are mostly irrelevant in terms of the engame loops, and even then, the endgame isn't new. It's shared with PoE1. So if all that really happens is people choose the new path to get to endgame, is that really a "draw" after the initial experience? Maybe I guess?

3.0 pulled in (back?) a lot of players relatively speaking at the time and that was largely an expansion of Acts 5-10. The end game changed as well but that's the normal loop around here. The end game has changed quite a few times since 3.0. I wouldn't be surprised if it changed with 4.0 as well.

I've lost track of all the end game loops since 3.0....

Shaper/Guardians
Shaper/Guardians + Elder/Guardians + Map Influence (Elder Ring Shenanigans)
Uber Elder
Sirus/Conquerors
Eat of Worlds + Searing Exarch
Ubers

I'm sure there is stuff I'm missing. All that to say, I'm sure the end game loop will change again. Another loop starting with 4.0 wouldn't be shocking.

I'm not sure about that, unless how we are defining the endgame differs. The endgame is the Atlas (and some related league mechanics). There are some aspirational content portions, sure, but adding uber uber Elder, to me, isn't an endgame loop. Thats just a boss fight. I suppose there could be differing opinions on that, but that's not something many players do, chaining uber content. It's not a common loop at least. Players might do what is needed to unlock stones to upgrade the Atlas and not do it again.

To me adding the atlas passive tree for example, is a draw, not changing from conqueror influence to Exarch or Eater influence. Which I'd consider just mapping tweaks. And by the way the Atlas passive tree is one of the best things they have added in years.

As for the acts...again I don't know how much the journey to the same endgame matters that much in PoE. The adding of acts 5-10 was a big change admittedly, because it eliminated the need to replay the same content again and again with penalties added. But the campaign still remains a negative point for many on replayability. It's not a draw or selling point from what I can tell.

It's interesting, if there was a poll on what players were excited about for PoE2, do you really think a secondary campaign will rate that highly? Maybe? Or will it be ascendancies, new weapons types, new skills, new gearing and socket changes, new animations, etc...

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DarthSki44 wrote:

I'm not sure about that, unless how we are defining the endgame differs. The endgame is the Atlas (and some related league mechanics). There are some aspirational content portions, sure, but adding uber uber Elder, to me, isn't an endgame loop. Thats just a boss fight. I suppose there could be differing opinions on that, but that's not something many players do, chaining uber content. It's not a common loop at least. Players might do what is needed to unlock stones to upgrade the Atlas and not do it again.

To me adding the atlas passive tree for example, is a draw, not changing from conqueror influence to Exarch or Eater influence. Which I'd consider just mapping tweaks. And by the way the Atlas passive tree is one of the best things they have added in years.

As for the acts...again I don't know how much the journey to the same endgame matters that much in PoE. The adding of acts 5-10 was a big change admittedly, because it eliminated the need to replay the same content again and again with penalties added. But the campaign still remains a negative point for many on replayability. It's not a draw or selling point from what I can tell.

It's interesting, if there was a poll on what players were excited about for PoE2, do you really think a secondary campaign will rate that highly? Maybe? Or will it be ascendancies, new weapons types, new skills, new gearing and socket changes, new animations, etc...

In the short term, I'm excited for the new set of acts. I do enjoy the storylines and added lore. Do the majority like that? Probably not. They like running around blowing things up and not caring what the end game loop looks like. The end game loops you don't consider end game are absolutely end game loops for some people though.

There are absolutely casuals who make a build and run the acts, avoiding maps completely. For them, the acts are the game. I've seen countless posts on this forum that speak to that particular game loop. People coming back for 3.0 for what was largely a new campaign also points to some people at least wanting to experience the campaign.

In general, when someone says the end game has been largely the same and will be the same moving forward isn't really playing the full end game in my opinion. They are getting stuck at entry level maps. They reached that impasse and decided that was it, I guess. I'm not one to shame someone for their playstyle or limitations whether that be time or skill, but it's very shortsighted to somehow think those loops being changed are not changes to the end game.

Could the game do more for end game for casuals? Sure. But I do think some content should not be watered down to be reachable by any skill level and build. That should be aspirational end game content. I just can't get behind the mindset that all content should be accessible no matter what that means in terms of making it easier. I'm not saying that is what you're saying, but I'm just getting ahead of that commentary for anyone who decides to quote me.

I do think making Searing Exarch and Eater of Worlds T14-16 only was a mistake. There should have been an easier loop with lower chances for drops to give casuals an end game loop as well.

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Nubatron wrote:

Could the game do more for end game for casuals? Sure. But I do think some content should not be watered down to be reachable by any skill level and build. That should be aspirational end game content. I just can't get behind the mindset that all content should be accessible no matter what that means in terms of making it easier. I'm not saying that is what you're saying, but I'm just getting ahead of that commentary for anyone who decides to quote me.

Surely though you can acknowledge there is a middle ground here that represents the most common endgame loop? Post acts but not aspirational content.

In fact I'd argue that's where most players fall that complete the campaign and just Map (Heist, Delve, etc) as their endgame loop. These folks typically just sell their invitations and writs. That's the loop, mapping for levels, passive unlocks, & currency.

Aspirational content is absolutely fine, and needed, I just dont think I'd call uber content chaining an endgame loop for like 99% of people.

...

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pr13st wrote:

I wonder if D4 is going to make more money than D3 (3.5 million sales first 24 hours / 6.3 million sales first week).

Yes.

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DarthSki44 wrote:

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Nubatron wrote:

Could the game do more for end game for casuals? Sure. But I do think some content should not be watered down to be reachable by any skill level and build. That should be aspirational end game content. I just can't get behind the mindset that all content should be accessible no matter what that means in terms of making it easier. I'm not saying that is what you're saying, but I'm just getting ahead of that commentary for anyone who decides to quote me.

Surely though you can acknowledge there is a middle ground here that represents the most common endgame loop? Post acts but not aspirational content.

In fact I'd argue that's where most players fall that complete the campaign and just Map (Heist, Delve, etc) as their endgame loop. These folks typically just sell their invitations and writs. That's the loop, mapping for levels, passive unlocks, & currency.

Aspirational content is absolutely fine, and needed, I just dont think I'd call uber content chaining an endgame loop for like 99% of people.

That was kind of my point about making new end game loops accessible through decreased chances for drops.

They could expand on Heist/Delve/etc. as well to freshen up that end game content or they could add more content similar to that. People around here tend to call that bloat though, which I wholeheartedly disagree with.

Either way, it's really hard in this genre to keep things fresh. PVP tends to be the thing that provides dynamic gameplay that survives the test of time. The only alternative is to change the meta, add new content, or modify existing content. Each of those three things gets attacked as nerfs/ruining builds, bloat, or ruining existing content respectively. The reality is that D2 set the tone for what happens with end game content. You repeat the same things over and over again chasing gear and improving your skill level. There are different iterations of what that means, but at the core, that's what we are doing. Anyone who finds that loop monotonous will very quickly find the game stale.

With regards to D4, I'm a little worried for D4 players because procedurally generated dungeons are one of the few ways to liven things up a little when the loop is otherwise the same thing over and over. I'm hoping the static dungeons is just a beta level development situation and will get resolved later.

POE SUX D4 ROCKS

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Nubatron wrote:

With regards to D4, I'm a little worried for D4 players because procedurally generated dungeons are one of the few ways to liven things up a little when the loop is otherwise the same thing over and over. I'm hoping the static dungeons is just a beta level development situation and will get resolved later.

Probably so with respect the beta preview. I mean there will be 6 acts (which given the act1 scope seems BIG) and an epilogue, so that leaves quite a bit of different environments, enemies, and layouts. What we saw in the beta was likely just a snapshot regarding dungeons. Imagine if PoE mapping endgame was just cage and dungeon layouts and that was it? It would get old quick. I fully anticipate the bigger picture to be much better, with different goals in the dungeons and how they look/feel.(idk maybe not? disappointing if so, but easily correctable in live service)

I'd also include that with helltides (like D2 terror zones), world events and bosses, PVP, and seasonal content,it seems like a decent amount of loops for a launch/ early going. We will find out soon enough how that translates.

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DarthSki44 wrote:

"

Nubatron wrote:

With regards to D4, I'm a little worried for D4 players because procedurally generated dungeons are one of the few ways to liven things up a little when the loop is otherwise the same thing over and over. I'm hoping the static dungeons is just a beta level development situation and will get resolved later.

Probably so with respect the beta preview. I mean there will be 6 acts (which given the act1 scope seems BIG) and an epilogue, so that leaves quite a bit of different environments, enemies, and layouts. What we saw in the beta was likely just a snapshot regarding dungeons. Imagine if PoE mapping endgame was just cage and dungeon layouts and that was it? It would get old quick. I fully anticipate the bigger picture to be much better, with different goals in the dungeons and how they look/feel.(idk maybe not? disappointing if so, but easily correctable in live service)

I'd also include that with helltides (like D2 terror zones), world events and bosses, PVP, and seasonal content,it seems like a decent amount of loops for a launch/ early going. We will find out soon enough how that translates.

Agreed, those are loops that will help keep the game alive. Those are mostly MMO type end game content though and I feel my skin crawl when thinking about it. It's just not my cup of tea. Dungeons feels like the more ARPG like content and that's why I homed in on that a little.