The XP Penalty is the worst thing in Path of Exile, remove it !!!

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jsuslak313 wrote:

Pointing to Last Epoch, D3, and other games is a very good example of the fact that getting to max level doesn't HAVE to be prohibitive for all players to achieve. PoE doesn't do ANYTHING differently from those games that makes lvl 100 more "valuable".

On the flip side, what's the point. In MMOs you might unlock something at max level, it might be a condition for joining raids, or giving people at least some kind of idea that you aren't a total noob. But PoE is very slim on social interaction, having a level 100 character doesn't really mean anything, and those final few levels barely give you any power. Seriously, there isn't even an achievement for it and I can't remember it ever being a challenge in a league either.

So, when someone asks GGG to remove the XP penalty so they can hit level 100 it might go in the same bin with requests like "Make albino rhoa feather more common, I want one".

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spaceace7373 wrote:

i just voiced my take on the situation. i honestly don't care how other people play the game. now i have a question for you... why do you care what i think about how other people play? other people don't play like i do so i don't care how they play.

The topic here is XP penalty and you only stated some observations, like everyone could achieve level 100 without mentioning any downside and then said you don't see a way to remove the penalty, again without saying what the actual issue with removing the penalty is.

Several users arguing against removing the penalty can't really explain what the actual issue would be. They either argue subjectively, saying they feel it would be bad for the game, or attempt to avoid mentioning any arguments by using poor sarcasm.

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spaceace7373 wrote:

Last Epoch is not PoE nor does it have some of the issues that PoE has. and i'm not allowed to post the rest of my thoughts on this matter without getting my post edited by staff. also, i now play PoE about 5-6 hours a week when it used to be 15-20. Last Epoch gets my non PoE playtime now when it used to be the other way around until the last few leagues when PoE seems to be going on a downhill spiral in my opinion

That's not what I ment. I'm not arguing about with one is better. I just wonder how Last Epoch can exist without an XP penalty but the same thing would be impossible for PoE.

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raics wrote:

On the flip side, what's the point. In MMOs you might unlock something at max level, it might be a condition for joining raids, or giving people at least some kind of idea that you aren't a total noob. But PoE is very slim on social interaction, having a level 100 character doesn't really mean anything, and those final few levels barely give you any power. Seriously, there isn't even an achievement for it and I can't remember it ever being a challenge in a league either.

So, when someone asks GGG to remove the XP penalty so they can hit level 100 it might go in the same bin with requests like "Make albino rhoa feather more common, I want one".

You're asking the wrong question. The question is "what's the point in having a feature when it has no real purpose" and not "what's the point in removing useless features". When a feature has no value, then it should be removed.

Also, people aren't arguing against the XP penalty, because they want to achieve level 100, but because they don't want to be penalized in multiple ways then they die. One already loses either the node attempt or the loot if it dropped already in delve, loses a map/boss attempt via removed portal or loses the lab run in the labyrinth. Everything, exept the story acts, already come with a penalty when they die.
That people will eventually reach level 100 is correct, but not the actual point about this discussion.

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LimeKoala wrote:

...
Several users arguing against removing the penalty can't really explain what the actual issue would be. They either argue subjectively, saying they feel it would be bad for the game, or attempt to avoid mentioning any arguments by using poor sarcasm.
...

Eh, now I feel bad, even though hope you weren't referring to me :)

I tend to drift away on these threads because all serious things were already said in past threads, with more or less same audience around, and also because nothing will really change anyway, GGG is more inclined to listen to players who made their PoE skills a point of personal pride, and thus they will defend penalty to the last breath.

Lets repeat the core argument:
- In current state of the game, exp penalty serves no constructive purpose.

It should draw player's attention to why he died, but there is no way to know why you died. Breakneck combat resolution speed, visual clusterfuck, no floating damage numbers, no death log. At best you can identify what mob or hazard did the final blow, but that's it. Was it a crit? Were you under debuffs at the moment? If it was a DoT, how long was the remaining duration? If not, was is a single hit or part of the barrage of hits?

Considering amount of grind in this game, I daresay no sane person would actually research each death. More likely, players will just double down on what they were doing before.

Second, penalty is supposed to make players to invest into defensive builds and gear. Problem is, no investment is enough to plug everything (well maybe if you are TFT founder). I've seen people with astronomic (compared to mine) investments from up close (being in party with them), and somehow they still weren't able to get from 99 to 100 too, same as me.

Only way is to resort to running hundreds of bland white maps without league content on them. I doubt those who designed the penalty envisioned such kind of treatment at that moment.

Finally, I don't ask for removing penalty from base game. Let those who enjoy "overcoming" it do so. But it would be great to give options to other kinds of players too, like making separate standard league.

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LimeKoala wrote:

You're asking the wrong question. The question is "what's the point in having a feature when it has no real purpose" and not "what's the point in removing useless features". When a feature has no value, then it should be removed.

You know, when people mentioned the removal of wisdom scrolls in a podcast, Chris said that it's important that the items don't drop identified. Can't quite remember if someone suggested to just replace the wisdom and portal scrolls with two buttons as is usually the case in modern games, but in any case that conversation ended with "No, we like having them", and that was final.

One argument about keeping those is that they're a somewhat important resource in some types of race events, if you ask me I'd just cut my losses there as those events are pretty uncommon but I suppose there's some merit to it. Similarly, EXP penalty is pretty important in some softcore events, it keeps them from being too much of a one trick pony race. PoE is light in social interaction, but gaining levels could have a value if it's a competition, but if it's a competition then XP penalty has a clear role, because messing up should carry a cost.

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Echothesis wrote:

Finally, I don't ask for removing penalty from base game. Let those who enjoy "overcoming" it do so. But it would be great to give options to other kinds of players too, like making separate standard league.

yeah treating it like its remove-exp-loss or nothing else isn't really working, alternatives have to be possible that would not break the balance the developers wish to maintain.

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LimeKoala wrote:

You're asking the wrong question. The question is "what's the point in having a feature when it has no real purpose" and not "what's the point in removing useless features". When a feature has no value, then it should be removed.

You know, when people mentioned the removal of wisdom scrolls in a podcast, Chris said that it's important that the items don't drop identified. Can't quite remember if someone suggested to just replace the wisdom and portal scrolls with two buttons as is usually the case in modern games, but in any case that conversation ended with "No, we like having them", and that was final.

One argument about keeping those is that they're a somewhat important resource in some types of race events, if you ask me I'd just cut my losses there as those events are pretty uncommon but I suppose there's some merit to it. Similarly, EXP penalty is pretty important in some softcore events, it keeps them from being too much of a one trick pony race. PoE is light in social interaction, but gaining levels could have a value if it's a competition, but if it's a competition then XP penalty has a clear role, because messing up should carry a cost.

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Echothesis wrote:

It should draw player's attention to why he died, but there is no way to know why you died. Breakneck combat resolution speed, visual clusterfuck, no floating damage numbers, no death log. At best you can identify what mob or hazard did the final blow, but that's it. Was it a crit? Were you under debuffs at the moment? If it was a DoT, how long was the remaining duration? If not, was is a single hit or part of the barrage of hits?

I don't think this is quite it, everything else aside the way it seems to me is that its main purpose is similar to cockblocker mods on maps, it's a resource cost. If we didn't have to gear to avoid dying more often than once every X amount of time, then a big part of character building system would have no value.

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raics wrote:

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Echothesis wrote:

It should draw player's attention to why he died, but there is no way to know why you died. Breakneck combat resolution speed, visual clusterfuck, no floating damage numbers, no death log. At best you can identify what mob or hazard did the final blow, but that's it. Was it a crit? Were you under debuffs at the moment? If it was a DoT, how long was the remaining duration? If not, was is a single hit or part of the barrage of hits?

I don't think this is quite it, everything else aside the way it seems to me is that its main purpose is similar to cockblocker mods on maps, it's a resource cost. If we didn't have to gear to avoid dying more often than once every X amount of time, then a big part of character building system would have no value.

Limited portals already fill that role, you always have to build defenses to last long enough to accomplish the objective. That won't change if penalty goes away.

Actually, in case of new league without penalty, 6 portals can be reduced to 3-4, as an alternate penalty. It won't feel nearly as frustrating as large exp loss.

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Echothesis wrote:

Limited portals already fill that role, you always have to build defenses to last long enough to accomplish the objective. That won't change if penalty goes away.

Actually, in case of new league without penalty, 6 portals can be reduced to 3-4, as an alternate penalty. It won't feel nearly as frustrating as large exp loss.

Dunno if they're up for reducing max party size to 3-4.

Well, there are also people that like to burn all portals on hauling every scrap of loot back home, I just don't have it in me to tell them what they're doing is wrong, it's just so innocent. And we don't want to punish Innocence any more than we do during campaign.

@raics: it almost seemed like for a moment when you looked at the flip side, that you were actually making the same point as me and agreeing lol. Currently, because there is no special achievement for Level 100, there is no reason for the exp penalty. If that changed, then yes there would be new special meaning for level 100, and there would be renewed reasoning to keep the exp penalty.

I do agree that it WOULD have a point in a race setting, where leveling the fastest is the entire point. But if that is the case, and since races are special events, then just implement the exp penalty in those races. They already have special rules for special events, why can't exp penalty be just another special obstacle? The base game holds no such competitive need.

And the point came up again that exp penalty deters makign glass cannon, yolo builds. It doesn't and I agree with Echothesis, limited portals fills this role sufficiently. What the exp penalty actually does (for players who care about it) is twofold: it causes players to run easier content or get carried to a level, and it causes players to strategically run bosses and harder content only when they have either just leveled up, or have less than 10% exp in their new level so that the death penalty doesn't hold any actual meaning. It really doesn't do anything to make you build more defensively. If you die often, its the lack of portals and loot that gets you to stop doing the hard content, not the loss of exp. Because if you cared about exp, you wouldn't even be trying the harder content to begin with.