D4 will be roflstomp for PoE players...

Guy in video says playing 4 days earlier with the pre-purchase editions is P2W but first season (where it would matter) starts several weeks up to a month after release? Classic. * Risitas giggling*. Guy just got mad here. It's okay, calm down.

-E:

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TorsteinTheFallen wrote:

Spoiler

and you'll get bored from the get go.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0WL-26ig5OE&ab_channel=Slaydra

You can mute this guy...

What really bugged me in this gameplay is that health globe doesn't move. Yeah, it's full 99% of time. It's just a walk and spam simulator.
They even killed the boss by mostly holding right click and just spamming skills at him without taking almost no damage.

The same as PoE's campaign. I guess you're trying to make a point here , maybe use another more proper example.

If we are being honest, like really honest, gameplay videos for PoE, are a complete mockery of the genre.

Posting a leveling video for an alpha version of D4, and claiming it means ANYTHING, is laughable.

As for PoE, just watch Mathil, since you clearly like to cite content creators to make a point. Watch as he levels a new build, and tell me how "difficult" it is.

I personally think the comparison videos to the screen popping, nimis ring, explosion, visual clarity abominations, versus to the smooth combat, and *gasp, melee combat in D4 will be a stark reality check.

PoE at its core isnt difficult, its player hostile in its design, and its intentionally vague and obscure mechanically. "I dont know what the fuck is going on, or what killed me", and "man this is difficult, I'd best review my build", are very different thoughts.

Alright, if the thread is going to be about a specific angle of DIV/PoE/ARPGs in general, let's do that. Difficulty represented by early videos/demos vs the actual thing.

This is, as others have pointed out, kind of a silly thing to discuss, sort of like looking at an ultrasound scan from the second trimester and arguing over whether the kid's going to be a mathematician or an athlete. BUT Exiles do love their silly arguments, so here we go.

To date, THE most accurate representation of final product in any ARPG from demo/early impressions is, of course, Diablo 1 shareware. In two levels it showed you exactly what to expect. But that's a product of its times, right? No games as service, no live updates, no demand for nerfs or buffs or additional content (beyond Sierra's weird little expansion Hellfire). The difficulty curve of Diablo 1 didn't really change from levels 1-2 to 15-16, not in terms of what you had at your disposal at the time.

Diablo 2 had two betas: a closed and a stress test. The closed beta was all of act 1 and, again, fairly accurately represented what we could expect. I'd say the difficulty curve for nightmare was a fair bit steeper and then Hell was just plain unfair at times with its complete damage-type immune enemies. The stress test was just Barbarians killing Bloodraven over and over and then each other in the Blood Moor. Good times.

Diablo 3's closed beta was the first I experienced where I knew, 100%, it was far easier and more enticing than what the full game would be. But to explain how I knew that, I have to veer a little into a different genre, but one that has a game that had far too much influence over Diablo 3: World of Warcraft. The closed beta for that was actually a lot of fun, probably because it didn't have many people. I enjoyed this EQ/DAoC-lite experience, marveled at how well Blizzard took an inherently dense, newbie-unfriendly type of game and made it intuitive and...well, easy. Early WoW was way, way easier than any other MMO out there. I knew from my own experience that it was a misleading representation of what was to come but that didn't stop me being pulled in...briefly.

That was 2005 I think. Maybe 2004. Anyway, D3's Closed Beta was years after that but the moment I loaded it up, I couldn't miss just how heavily influenced it was by WoW -- as with WoW's closed beta, D3's closed beta was all about accessibility and smoothness (technical issues aside; it was still a beta!). They knew that this wasn't just a test of the game's stability or balance; it was advertising.

Between D2 and D3, Blizzard didn't so much grow as metamorphose. You all know this, but a lot of people didn't. They just assumed that WoW was one thing, D3 would be another. But this is why D3 could never be a proper sequel to D2: Blizzard's reputation for creating streamlined, polished AF games came with WoW, NOT D2. D3 tried to marry D2's surface with WoW's ability to pull people in. It didn't work.

DIV has to do a few things in its pre-release state. First and foremost it has to reassure fans of the genre it's not a rehash of D3, DI, or WoW. I think that's been achieved. But it still needs to look inviting and accessible, which of course they do by easing players into the difficulty -- again, achieved. But then they show off world bosses and mention dungeon raid like events and opportunities, and that's basically code for 'difficult content'. So they're already trying to show that the game can be soloed by non-hardcore ARPG players/casuals, and has something to offer those who might have cut their teeth on tougher meat.
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What DIV doesn't have to do is appeal to committed players of other games, especially in the same genre. I think it's painfully reductive to say that Exiles will find it 'roflstomp' given I've seen Souls experts struggle with PoE and Exiles struggle with Souls games, and I've seen both struggle with rogue-lites...there is a massive amount of hubris in thinking just because you've 'mastered' one game you're going to master another because it's similar or even in the same rough genre. Especially one as idiosyncratic as Path of Exile. You might be some pre-eminent scholar of the Atlas, but none of that is going to be of any real use against a DIV world boss.

What baffles me is why more Exiles don't find that interesting or exciting. Is the ARPG horizon really so scary? Try looking up from grinding Maps or chasing PoE achievements to see just how much more the genre has to offer, especially once it finally figures out how to stop trying to be Diablo 2 or, heaven forbid, Diablo 3.

Or, y'know, keep playing PoE because it makes you feel smart. No one said you have to really challenge yourself in your pastimes. I sure as fuck don't -- I love walking simulators, text-heavy rpgs, tv shows that either simplify aspects of reality or make it more interesting, and listening to the pop party version of metal. Most tellingly, I post here while waiting for my brain to recharge between more important things. Just to be honest with yourself about these pastimes. Playing PoE incessantly and devotedly doesn't make you a genius. Doesn't make you any better or worse than any other gamer out there playing what they enjoy. It certainly doesn't make you an expert of any other game.

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It is ludicrous to think Blizzard, or any game developer, is going to show how hard their game will be at the upper end at this stage of development. This is Exile-thinking, since GGG have convinced y'all that endgame is the only game worth playing. The only game anyone plays. And yet you also know that the vast majority of PoE characters never reach maps -- statistically proven. At this stage, it's all about pulling people in, and you don't do that by crushing their hopes in a fucking demo video or a beta. Not even demos for Soulslikes and Niohlikes do that. Even those games make some effort to appeal to a new player's sensibilities.

But here you are, saying 'lol DIV is gonna be so easy for an Exile' -- so what? Blizzard aren't making the game for Exiles. Thank fucking god.

I cannot think of a less reliable source of judgment for another ARPG's worth and potential than an entrenched Exile. This seems counterintuitive...until you consider what Path of Exile is (a gambling/trading game cosplaying as an ARPG) and what it does to a long-time player's perspective on the genre (in Fringe's terms, it ambers it -- locked in stasis, perhaps as caught in some dream not unlike the one offered to the Gods by Sin's Beast).

At some point, 'Exile' and 'ARPG Fan' became almost mutually exclusive.

"

Foreverhappychan wrote:

so what? Blizzard aren't making the game for Exiles. Thank fucking god.

This. This so fucking much.

Let the few thousand elite Exiles in the PoE ninja jerk circles have their fun. Literally millions of D4 players wont give a single fuck that you hit 40/40 again, and posted an AMA thread.

The top of the Exile community is as toxic and elitist as there is in all of gaming. And some of it is so blatantly self serving in the content creator club, its cringe to the extreme. Not that this is unique to PoE, but holy shit does GGG prop them up, and focus development around them. It's so unabashedly prevalent its not even a "take" anymore, its reality right in your face.

Maybe some folks disagree, but objectively, I don't know what the counter-point would be. Its basically contempt for the average gamer for reasons I cannot fathom.

The worst thing is, and this is something I've expanded upon in a GD nostalgia thread, is I remember when things were so different. When this was the best God Damn community in gaming, period. I knew it couldn't last -- language barriers that GGG weren't ready to deal with, free to play attracting a wider range of player types, GGG slipping from their role of 'challenging game-masters' to 'paranoid opposition', the game itself encouraging increasingly hostile behaviour between players outside of the game (inside, ironically, it became far less contentious thanks to shit like allocated loot and a complete failure to implement a meaningful, enjoyable PVP mode) -- but I enjoyed it while I could.

I am not expecting the same of DIV. I've already had some old guildies express surprise at my enthusiasm for what I've seen so far, but then ask if I might somehow put the band back together. Well, no. I DO see great potential for social interaction on DIV given it's got a lot of MMO DNA injected into its ARPG framework, but I'll be content to play it alone or with a few old RL friends now and then. Whether or not it has a toxic community won't be my problem or concern, and if Blizzard are so incompetent as to MAKE it my problem or concern...then I'll play something else.

No ARPG should be this dependent upon and affected by its community. I've seen full on MMOs that were more stable, more 'independent' in terms of ignoring the metagame and having to use third party tools just to engage with a solid chunk of the content. Admittedly, rare once you hit a certain point of commitment, but I'd argue that point should be much...much higher for an ARPG than for an MMO.

It was an interesting little loophole GGG created with PoE -- is trading with other players considered 'non-solo' gameplay? If not, then they've kept to their core vision that PoE be soloable. If it is, however, then they've failed. Not that you can't play SSF or SSFHC, but it's not the 'standard' way to play. It's widely recognised as a self-impairment, one that requires significant game knowledge and pre-planning (even with Ruthless, fulfilling builds is possible once you get past a certain slog, I believe -- or you know a pre-existing build based on what you have found).

Again, that probably won't be an issue with DIV because I have already seen the model they're planning to use work very well. Games like XIV and GW2 have already perfected the way you can go from playing alone to suddenly pulled into a group event with randos. XIV's biggest issue is forced MP content, something they're slowly overcoming with impressive NPC usage in story-based dungeons. GW2's biggest issue is it's late to that party, and so is still in the forced MP stage of thing. But both games have enjoy long periods where a player can stay solo for most of the game.

I've never read a patch notes list for either. Usually there are articles highlighting the biggest changes, and often videos. Might sound funny coming from the forum's resident Wall O Text construction manager, but I really dislike chunky patch notes. Usually only about 5% applies to me and how I play. Sometimes less.

And that all comes back to community engagement, since GGG insist on putting their patch notes here and not in a separate page elsewhere on the site. They don't even have the good grace to lock them upon publication, so it's very easy to scroll too far and start to see community responses.

I can't be the only one who got tired of their primitive methodology.

At the very least D4 will mostly be relatable for majority of the players. Of course there will be some top end min/max folks, but there will not be this chasm that's exists in PoE from the elite to the average.

I dont think its hyperbole to say the top end are legitimately playing a different game than most experience.

I wont even get into streamer queues and players segments being "piles of money", but yeah. The shockingly cool days of dev forum interaction, people holding up paper signs at GGG GQ looking for beta keys, and Mark1 helping us put things together before PoB, are all sad nostalgia pieces of a better time. GGG has changed just as much, if not more, than the players enjoying PoE. And none of it's good really. Its toxicity, corporate motivation, ego, stubbornness, pride, and contempt all rolled into one big hot mess.

That said I don't regret much, if anything. It is what it is.

The bar has dropped so low for me expectations wise, not much surprises me any longer. From gamble boxes (forced by law to reveal drops rates lol), mtx being sold along with meta balance changes, to a damn battle pass. There is absolutely no way I would have believed anyone 10+ years ago if that's what they told me it would end up as.

hoho.

Seems to me that the Op mistakes annoying one shotting gameplay for fun and engaging...

Fun means to have joy from the game..
Most of the times the more linear and easy game is much more fun..

I personally am sick and tired of all the one shotting disgusting mechanics and the thousands flying exploding balls around...
And the countless degens on the ground ..

Many times the simpler game is much more fun .

I personally cant wait for d4..
Finally real upgrade drops and not everyone is trade bot..

You get out of it what you put into it.

You unlock harder content. Both world maps and instances.

And yes, death happens even before you unlock the 1st tiers of harder content. Less likely from world trash, but not impossible.

Heck my first death was before level 3 (Not knowing what to expect) at my first shrine like event just outside of town. Didn't yet have mobility skills unlocked and the 4 bears swarmed me fast. Can't out-run-them yet.

Once you get some gear and skills the game gets much easier fast and stays mostly easy until late game. But the same can be said about POE.