[3.25] Ice Dancing Queen - Icestorm/Cyclone/CI - Viable For Everything

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Firestrike9 wrote:

As always I trust your judgement but wont dropping so much spell block affect our tankyness? is the instant leech really that good that we give up on all max leech nodes + ghost reaver? Why do we need es recharge when we have overleech, wont it be better to have the double maximum leech from ghost reaver for bosses that move a lot?

Spell block was added mostly for the multi-boss fights such as Uber Feared. Which is no longer in the game. It could sometimes save your life when you failed to dodge a 1-hit from an uber pinnacle boss. But not reliably anyway. There is still 21% spell block chance in the 3.21 version.

Yes, instant leech is really that good. I posted some math about it earlier.

We don't specifically need ES recharge. We just don't need Ghost Reaver anymore, and recharge is a QoL bonus.

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SGBye wrote:

I am a bit concerned that without Ambush and Assassinate we have 43% crit chance. Is it okay?

Yes. It's still more damage than the non-crit version.

About curse application

Option 1: CWDT lv 1 - Ball Lightning lv 1 - Hextouch - curse(s).

Pros:
- automatic, no action required;
- applies as a wide directional beam;
- don't have to get near the target, great for namelocking mobile bosses.
Cons:
- requires getting hit.

Option 2: Vortex - Bonechill - Arcane Surge - Hextouch - curse(s).

Pros:
- doesn't require getting hit;
Cons:
- have to get near the target;
- applies in a small area, won't hit ranged attackers.

For me the 1st method looks like a no-brainer. You are constantly getting hit in mapping, often from range. On the bosses, the only situation where the 2nd method is better is the random 1-5 sec delay Sirus gives you at the start of the final phase. And for most of that encounter chasing him is a waste of time.

Namelocking is wonderful. It's one of the best features of this build. Chasing a teleporting boss or getting near a dangerous 1-shot boss just to apply the curse seems like a worse alternative to ranged auto-cursing.

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Kelvynn wrote:

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Vahkerr wrote:

The end tree Kelvynn posted for 3.21 is almost exactly the same pathing as the crit variant that I ran in sanctum

Your tree was basically the main version's tree with small additions. It made me realize that we don't need to take every crit node out there. A small investment was enough. Thank you for that!

Oh it definitely was. When I was experimenting last league, I was mainly trying to find a 'best of both worlds' approach between the core build and the some of the benefits of the crit version Whiterock was running to optimize gains and see if I could try out a few things I'd liked in some other builds I played. The core build is so well rounded and the main pathing is so distributed it's easy to plug things you'd like to get into the tree, see what tradeoffs are efficient or that you can live with, and go from there.

And to be clear, I was responding to @santjohn asking me if 'my tree' this league was going to be the same, not trying to claim any kind of particular epiphany on my part. Hope I've expressed it before, but serious kudos to you for the design of this build, and especially how you support it via the guides and discussion. The community discussion here in this thread is also excellent. Last league was probably the most enjoyable experience with a build I've had in PoE.

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Kelvynn wrote:

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The mark cluster is high on that list

I've looked at that. It's an interesting idea. The cluster itself is worthless but the mastery node basically gives you free Frenzy charges. That's 16% MORE damage. Problem is, we are already starving on skill points. Dropping something else results in a much smaller gain.

I'll ponder on it some more.

The mastery node is definitely the main draw, especially the frenzy charges.

One alternate for frenzy charges that's reasonably easy to integrate in a lot of general situations at the cost of an open gem slot is coldsnap/vaal coldsnap. It's not particularly helpful in a lot of boss situations beyond a single application, but it is a quick means to grab some extra benefits in stuff where just a bit of extra damage can matter like double high mod essence monsters, higher wave simulacrum, et and give a potential minor boost to mapping

I'd really love to figure a way to work in something more reliable that that though on bosses.

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What attack would you use to trigger Mark on Hit? Swapping to Cyclone just to apply it seems like a waste of time. Not to mention the reduced effect mod. Just cast it manually!

Yes, it would be cyclone. If you look back on my post I did state manually casting it was an easy option, but folks were also asking specifically how to automate assassin's mark and that's the only way I've used post mark on hit rings nerf. It gives you a bit of QoL in some mapping situations but that's about it.

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Vahkerr wrote:

The mastery node is definitely the main draw, especially the frenzy charges.

Actually, I think the best way of adding frenzy charges would be crafting +1 minimum frenzy charge on the rings. That would require good resist management (likely a resist mod on the chest). But you get 8% MORE damage without sacrificing anything on the tree.

Hmm. What happens if you have Punishment & Frostbite in the 5L chest and you cast Assassin's Mark manually on the boss? Which curse of the first two doesn't get applied? Frostbite?

About Assassin's Mark

I've played around some more in PoB and found that:

- With a low budget Frostbite is simply better. You just don't have enough resist penetration without FB or crit chance for AM to be worth it.

- With a moderate budget they are about the same damage. But you have to cast AM manually. Still not worth it.

- Once you have Ambush and Assassinate - that's when AM starts working well. It gives about 12% more damage vs bosses than FB.

So, Assassin's Mark is a high budget option for those not too lazy to manually cast it.

Also, casting it manually will interrupt your main DPS flow. All other skills you use while spamming Icestorm are instant (Frostblink, Vortex). This will be a disruption that you can only afford while Icestorm is already fully stacked.

I'm getting more and more skeptical about it.

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Graiaule wrote:

Hmm. What happens if you have Punishment & Frostbite in the 5L chest and you cast Assassin's Mark manually on the boss? Which curse of the first two doesn't get applied? Frostbite?

Curses are applied by the trigger order where the X most recent curses/hexes are in effect.

The link trigger order is top left to bottom right.
So if you have a maximum of 2 curses and in your 5L chest frostbite comes before punishment, then when you cast assassins mark - it will replace the oldest curse with assassins mark, which is frostbite (Since the chest trigger casted Frostbite, followed by Punishment)

But anyway you wouldn't want to reach a situation like this as it will replace your permanent mark, when you do a boss you probably want to have 1 curse in your CWDT so assassins mark doesnt get removed when the chest trigger goes into action again.

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Kelvynn wrote:

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Firestrike9 wrote:

As always I trust your judgement but wont dropping so much spell block affect our tankyness? is the instant leech really that good that we give up on all max leech nodes + ghost reaver? Why do we need es recharge when we have overleech, wont it be better to have the double maximum leech from ghost reaver for bosses that move a lot?

Spell block was added mostly for the multi-boss fights such as Uber Feared. Which is no longer in the game. It could sometimes save your life when you failed to dodge a 1-hit from an uber pinnacle boss. But not reliably anyway. There is still 21% spell block chance in the 3.21 version.

Yes, instant leech is really that good. I posted some math about it earlier.

We don't specifically need ES recharge. We just don't need Ghost Reaver anymore, and recharge is a QoL bonus.

Thanks for the reply.

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Graiaule wrote:

Hmm. What happens if you have Punishment & Frostbite in the 5L chest and you cast Assassin's Mark manually on the boss? Which curse of the first two doesn't get applied? Frostbite?

The newest curse will replace the oldest.

If you got hit first and the target is cursed with Punishment and Frostbite, then Assassin's Mark will replace one of them - the one that's closer to Hextouch in the link.

However, the moment you get hit again the two CWDT curses will re-apply and replace Assassn's Mark.

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Kelvynn wrote:

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Vahkerr wrote:

The mastery node is definitely the main draw, especially the frenzy charges.

Actually, I think the best way of adding frenzy charges would be crafting +1 minimum frenzy charge on the rings. That would require good resist management (likely a resist mod on the chest). But you get 8% MORE damage without sacrificing anything on the tree.

Good point. Definitely doable though. No aspect of the spider means you have another belt slot to use as well. Holy dominion isn't terribly far away either if you can find a place to drop two tree points. Again, one of the things I love about this build is whatever you need to grab is usually going to be in reach.


@ Kelvynn : Thinking of some places where you can grab some flexibility to balance resists/attributes etc, have you run the numbers on natural affinity / nature's patience and emperor's wit vs just using jewels with multiplier and flat int/attributes for the final 2 slots in the second cluster? I know I ended going with the latter last league, but I can't remember if it was solely because I needed some flex to balance attributes.

I seem to remember being a little surprised by the numbers when I ran them. Given the cost of emperorer's wit, if nothing else it's a budget option until you can afford EW. Dropping natural affinity also means you have another point on the tree to grab something else which adds to the equation.

I'm working now, so can't easily access PoB.