Let us level by other means than the campaign - suggestions
" because most players only have the games betterment in mind and dont strife for most convenience/ least resistance, as we all know. i get your point, and i partially agree, but thats only the lazy ass player in me that agrees. from a designs point of view, this would kill the game on a long run, like leagues burning out faster. Last edited by SquareCubiC#3528 on May 11, 2022, 12:01:14 AM
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using diablo as an example i would say diablo uses an archaic system.
when someone buys a diablo game, what they're buying is: 1. Campaign mode (and cinematics) 2. Things to do after blizz doesnt care that you skip campaign mode once you've completed it once. their goal is your money and for you to keep playing. they then release an expansion or a new diablo title. POE uses a different system. its exactly as what chris mentioned. the moment you allow players to skip campaign mode, players will ONLY play campaign ONCE. in the short term it may seem beneficial for players. in a long term what it does is it removes ANY INCENTIVE for GGG to make a new campaign. if the campaign was skipped, POE 2 would arguably be less impactful. exactly as what chris mentioned, a player who tried POE 1, isnt going to come back to POE 1 version 6.2312A but if under a new brand POE 2, they are more likely to give POE 2 another shot. this then becomes a new cycle where GGG can see the result (influx of new players/interest). this incentivizes GGG to continue developing the game. we might get POE3, POE4. new campaigns. new stuff to do. and one important distinction is that i believe GGG's philosophy is that nothing is wasted. all your characters and gears/mtxs that you accrued will be retained and usable throughout all these iterations. so yeah, skipping campaign can be a good option to have but it could hurt the game's longevity in a long run. this game doesnt use the same model as diablo [Removed by Support]
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Eh, we've been asking for a story-independent way of leveling alts *forever*. Literally one of the first topics I really discussed here way back in 2012 I'd say. The Map system, cribbed liberally from games like Torchlight, seemed the perfect stand-alone means of leveling characters, but they've kept that locked past the drudgesome campaign and likely will keep it there. I dunno, maybe they see the campaign as some sort of test of endurance or something. I really liked it the first few times. But as a certain witch likes to say, familiarity breeds contempt, and any story's gonna get old after enough times.
I play almost objectively inferior ARPGs because they have a non-story leveling mode. Not saying the introduction of one would bring me back, but I certainly would have enjoyed the game a lot more I think. This is why I really enjoyed Descent and Descent: Champions. They felt like genuine evolutions of the POE framework into a sustainable, replayable mode ruled but not ruined by RNG. I suspect they've simply put too much time and energy into the slog of the ten act campaign to explore an Adventure-mode style option, especially as regards new leagues and all that. I don't see why they couldn't have both, but then again there's a lot of shit about PoE I don't see. What really amuses me is how pretty much every regular player refers to the campaign as 'tutorial mode' and spends as little time with it as possible -- mapping being the 'true' game -- and so what do GGG go and do? Announce a SECOND campaign, this one 7 acts, full of shiny new locations and quests and story that, almost without fail, most regular players will be eager to rush through within a month or two of PoE 4.0's release. And I see no real difference between rushing through something giving it absolutely no thought and just skipping it. If anything, the latter seems at least honest: no one likes to repeat the same story over and over when it's...honestly, it's not even a story, is it? It's a series of quests that most players wouldn't bother with but for the rewards. But for the obligation. It's not like you get even a modicum of agency with Path of Exile's campaign. You HAVE to do it, almost 100% the same every time. Characters barely change. The Exile changes in precisely one way and one way only: they get stronger. If that's a story, I'm a ham sandwich. A second campaign of similar content and intent (its main goal being to get you to the Atlas) seems like a huge waste of time and money to me, but I guess if you want to flog your expansion as a sequel, it has to at least LOOK like a new game with new acts. Ignoring some confusion as to whether it's an ACTUAL new game or not (always makes me laugh; as if GGG could afford to make a new game when all their loyal supporters have invested so much into their premium-priced experience of this one!), it'll probably pay off too. It's not that most people are dumb, just that they generally don't think about this stuff very much. They have other priorities in their lives. Fooling them into thinking an expansion is a sequel is child's play in that regard...or, if not fooling them, at least convincing them to accept that's what GGG are calling it and that's that. So PoE 4.0 becomes Path of Exile 2, with (so far) two distinct features: a new campaign leading to the same endgame as PoE '1', and a skill gem socketing overhaul. The latter could be done to PoE 1, but the former really should be the domain of a true sequel. But again: not happening. Not when a GAAS is your only egg in a relatively small basket. Good thing it's made of gold. I've yet to see a tenable argument against a non-story leveling mode in an ARPG from the perspective of a player who values their time. In my not-inconsiderable experience with ARPG gameplay loops (I'm currently at around 2.8k hours with Wolcen, most of it spent leveling alts in the non-story leveling/rogue-like mode), a story-independent leveling mode increases a game's longevity rather than the opposite, since it distils down what we love to do without forcing us to repeat something we might have enjoyed the first time around, but are guaranteed to give fuck-all fucks about the tenth or twentieth. So that argument is dead in the water imo. But from GGG's perspective? Marketing, pure and simple. They get to claim 'free content!' and point at their huge campaign, as though it's somehow the bulk of the game just because it's the bulk of the levels (you're typically well over level 60 by the time you hit the Atlas) another illusion of proportion, of course: you'll spend FAR more time in the Atlas than in Wraeclast now. Which is to say, you'll be spending far more time in the 'post story' mode (any 'story' in the Atlas is tacked onto the main campaign and you won't convince me otherwise, so don't bother trying) -- and another term for the 'post story' mode is 'non-story', since you are no longer engaging with the story. No? And if people are rushing for that, for the gameplay loop full of options and interesting bosses and most of all, freedom from the tyranny of glorified fetch quests that have shit-all real effect on the game experience beyond their rewards...then why not just give them the option to skip what they're rushing through and go straight to what they WANT to do? Few games would benefit from a story-independent leveling mode as much as PoE. I just think GGG know they don't have to make that effort, and so they don't. People shovel money at them either way. And they said *I* was bad at PoE. At least I made it out of act 1 and know how to use the /dnd function. El oh fucking el. I am Path of Exile's biggest whale. Period. Last edited by Foreverhappychan#4626 on May 11, 2022, 3:35:50 AM
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" Yep a second campaign that will be again boring after a couple of completions. It is not because sulphite would be accessible early that means having a retrofited delve that is endless and boring. Giving access to an alternative way of farming mobs to level up and giving sulphite to go delve and unlocking ascendancy would be great if you don't want to bother with the 10 freaking acts you've already done for the 100th time... Having a second campaign is nice, but sometime yu just want to bash mobs to level up and don't want to be bothered by quests. Grim Dawn, beyond your first character gives you a way to unlock all difficulties and validate every quest but does not give you the experience for it. PoE is in great need of such a feature. Path of Exile is a Casino for gambling addicts. Gambling is not fun nor a game mechanic... Last edited by Azarhiel#6045 on May 11, 2022, 4:18:14 AM
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The number one hurdle I have to get over to play this game every league is doing the campaign followed by lab. Last league I straight up tapped out before maps cause I wasnt in the mood for the several hundreth time, combined with the league mechanic being zzz.
I have 5k hours played in the game since 1.3 and the barrier to me continuing to play a league and rolling another alt (I like to play alts!) has always been slogging through the campaign to get to maps. Its not hard, its just time consuming 'homework' you endure to get to the good part of the game. I dunno why I hate campaign in any form but it just saps the life out of me these days, on the flip side I can grind a single map type 8 hours straight and not bat an eye and enjoy myself. I dont care about economy/race, put me in a ssf voided unmigratable version of the league where I can just enjoy making alts and mapping asap and i'd play longer and buy more mtx. Campaign/Story mode are always trash after the 1st time. If the devs love their campaign mode so much, rename yourself to grinding campaign games. I'm going to give the next league a try since its got the atlas passives to let me block the league mechanics I dont like, we'll see if I can suffer the campaign one more time :) Lab is a chore
Delve / Harbinger / Incursion / Delirium best leagues. |
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Tbh, i am both in and out on this subject.
First character every league should go through campaign, that's my thought. However, second characther we create after the first character finishes campaign, should be free to do enjoy what it wants to do. |
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as i stated before, there would still be a lot of mental shit going on if we had a "level as you like system"
Making it easier/ faster/ more convenient to level an alt, would decrease the amount of time spent in the game, as you would bore out even more. not that i wanna say that the campaign is super exciting or even fun to its full potential. BUT i'd rather play and level my build in a well known environment, being able to autopilot to some extent, notice some weak points during levelling, because i have exact comparison points, and improve those, rather than having to A: pay attention to potentially random mods on monster and B: follow a mining cart for 4-5 hours straight. B.2 heist my ass off B.3 whatever other repetitive option there might be. even tho campaign is not the most uplifting experience when you have 12k hours in the game (weird flex btw) it is in my eyes the best way of levelling, and is in a good spot. on league start you can fairly easy get a character to maps in 4-5h. mildly reducing that time when you have some levelling gear for your alt. now, what about those people who say they need at least double that time you may ask. well, to those i can just say, improve. as harsh as it sounds, but Quality of life improvements may be nice, but only for the games betterment up to a certain point. what could be next? a build importer so you dont have to click through your passives anymore, all fully automated, so you can even more blindly follow some random guys build and understand even less about what you're actually doing. and arrow above your head so you know where you gotta go, basically removes any need to learn to read map layouts. Tool assisted mapping, basically a "rotation bot" as seen in other games - comes with an configurable auto pickit. etc etc sure those are exaggerations, but, getting through the campaign quick, is a skill you acquire by doing it - and if you still need 10h to maps after your allegedly 100th character, well... you're doing something wrong. i am personally strictly against such things because easy access kills the game. it is like a konami code somehow. lets take OG harvest for example. while it enabled crafting for new people and even endgame for more, i have never seen such a fluctuation in a league as i did in harvest. speaking of my friendslist exclusively and not caring about any metrics right there. i got pretty much all kinds of players on my friendslist, newbies, casuals, people that ask 5 questions as soon as you log in and never stop, up to people grinding their asses off in ssf for 40/40. harvest league, felt like a ghost town after not even a whole month. the only one that actually kept playing the most, was the guy asking questions... yayy but even he quit the league after he basically trivialized everything sure this might seem far too far from the actual context, but, granting easy access to endgame, kills the endgame, as it kills the value of it, at least partially. and from a very personal pov, i level roughly 15-25 chars per league (rough estimate, depends on the league) get them to endgame and eventually beat pinnacle content. If we had something like diablos adventure more, or endless delve, or heist, or whatever, i would be surprised if i even would level 5 chars. because the campaign is at least not as monotonous. i would also like to refer to my other post, and remind that alternate levelling methods may as well have a psychological impact on the players approach to the game (fomo), especially if there are content creators advertising that stuff, therefore we'd have an economical impact as well (players quit their characters faster instead of playing them for just a bit longer => less items and currency on the table) which could lead to yet the complete opposite (market is flooded with boss drops because people have way easier access to bossing builds) blah blah blah. there are plenty of variables that CAN lead to plenty of eventualities. TLDR of this paragraph is basically alternating levelling methods favour those who are good at the game way more than the average redditor. which leads to situations where people like empy and his group get even richer than before in comparison. dont even wanna imagine what reddit would be like in such a situation... but yea, on a long run, alternate levelling methods are not healthy for the game, from a players perspective, as well as from a business point of view. |
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Campaigns short and easy. Do it and stop whining or play something else
Mash the clean
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" The irony is so incredibly palpable. I'm sorry, but I couldn't disagree more with your other posts. The stuff about balance, business models, longevity etc. I - personally - would invest more time and money into the game if I didn't have to go through the unfun autopilot chore of the campaign multiple times each league (if I don't burn out before clearing it even once). And I know my friends feel the same way. And from this post, it seems we're not alone. |
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" Clap. I really can’t come up with any reasons why someone wouldn’t want this, which just means they’re defending it from GGGs perspective, aka they’re Stockholm-syndromed. If GGG did change their mind about all this they would jump wagons immediately... Also, why is the meat of the game not based around running a slightly more difficult campaign over and over again? Could it be that it’s boring af? It’s almost like GGG know this themselves... So why tf do we have to do it for 8-12 hours every league start? Ninja. Last edited by la_blue_girl#0819 on May 12, 2022, 1:23:03 PM
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