TFT are running 5way service and they are banning another team for best progress?

Darkski summarized it better than me.

@zakalwe55- I am not against anyone who likes TFT and I apologize for coming off that way. I think mixing game balance around what should be an optional third party app is what harms the game. I don't care if TFT is used by any amount of people, I just think it is trash design that it impacts my gameplay when I choose not to.

Corruption/moodiness/random bannings aren't even the main problem they just are symptoms of more things that can go wrong when you outsource.

You asked what I thought is a better system - well simply put, either
(1) replace services of TFT with ingame systems where in one window is the buyer currency and in the second window is the craft that will be performed on an item from Harvest/recipe/whatever (it could even work with boss killer services where the amount is only paid by the trade window if both parties are in presence of dead boss with X timeframe) or
(2) don't balance around it (and accept this means TFT users have a huge advantage but at least you aren't punishing non-users).

In my solution you dont even have to trust people with your item, nor can it be screwed up on accident.

How is that not better in every way possible?

Other commenter: "if you don't like TFT, create your own platform"

The problem is you have to go to user-run third party apps, at least that is what the game is balanced around. Creating more of this is worse not better.

If we could have guilds with thousands of members, maybe there would be some competition for TFT - people would trade crafts/rotations/services in their own guild. But even so, when there's lots of people, there are always complaints about "management".

"

trixxar wrote:

Darkski summarized it better than me.

@zakalwe55- I am not against anyone who likes TFT and I apologize for coming off that way. I think mixing game balance around what should be an optional third party app is what harms the game. I don't care if TFT is used by any amount of people, I just think it is trash design that it impacts my gameplay when I choose not to.

Corruption/moodiness/random bannings aren't even the main problem they just are symptoms of more things that can go wrong when you outsource.

You asked what I thought is a better system - well simply put, either
(1) replace services of TFT with ingame systems where in one window is the buyer currency and in the second window is the craft that will be performed on an item from Harvest/recipe/whatever (it could even work with boss killer services where the amount is only paid by the trade window if both parties are in presence of dead boss with X timeframe) or
(2) don't balance around it (and accept this means TFT users have a huge advantage but at least you aren't punishing non-users).

In my solution you dont even have to trust people with your item, nor can it be screwed up on accident.

How is that not better in every way possible?

Other commenter: "if you don't like TFT, create your own platform"

The problem is you have to go to user-run third party apps, at least that is what the game is balanced around. Creating more of this is worse not better.

this has nothing to do with 3rd party apps. while i agree that systems where you could safely trade services in game would be very good, to avoid scams and mistakes, the availability of these things are not balanced "around tft". they are balanced around being tradable at all, and tft just so happens to be the dominating hub for unsafe trading, as is naturally going to arise in a game with a complex economy like poe. in any game like this, the players who organize is going to have a significant advantage over unorganized players, especially when it comes to vouching people for trustbased trade.

players will organize in any way that is the most convienient. be it through forums, chat services, ingame guilds. it has nothing to do with 3rd party apps, just players inevitability to organize to easier reach their goals. now the question if the game should be balanced around players organizing like this is a valid question to raise, and its not easy to say what would be healthiest for the game. you say that people who dont participate in the large scale organizations are punished because of this, but even the outsiders benefit from what they do, through availability of items via trade generated through player run organizations, which will have prices dictated by the availability of the precursors inside the organization

and of course this extends to trading of goods that is mostly already supported through "official" trade channels. whatever you do, as long as you engage in trade you will indirectly be affected what the organized players are doing

"

DarthSki44 wrote:

"

Silverpelt wrote:

Can a mod close this thread please

Haha I dont have a dog in this fight, but holy shit you don't get to ask GGG to shut down a thread because you don't like how its going.

I don't know why this has even droned on for this many pages. Its actually pretty simple.

TFT is a 3rd party tool. GGG has no real control. Maybe some influence but that's about it.

TFT are run by folks who are anonymous and have zero true accountability. This was never going to end well once they got the taste of blood and power.

TFT is a problem that is impacting folks who don't use it because GGG is balancing crafting and trade around it. Which I have no fucking idea why. The leagues are 3 months long for fucks sake, and then resets.

Anyways just chalk it up to another situation where GGG has ceded developmental and QoL game concepts tona 3rd party at the cost of the players. Its exhausting at this point. It really sucks for the average, casual, player and at some point the alienating behaviors will hurt the bottom line. Idk when that will be on a large scale, but its already taken a toll in smaller segments.

Edit: spelling and grammar

I'm only asking this because this thread turned into a full fledged commercial for TFT with that brainless bad faith-ed drone.


Is this forum a platform to promote or come cry about a 3rd party site like TFT? No


[Removed by Support]


GGG ceded dev of Qol to third party sites? Yes, definitely; PoB, PoeNinja, PoePrice, and the like. I doubt the attitude of some in TFT and how things goes with TFT with all the complains of people being scammed does make them happy. I'm pretty sure it makes them cringe as much as it makes me cringe when I read about TFT moderators banning people for trivial reasons or to keep a monopoly. I, also, hardly doubt GGG envisioned some third party Channel where people could possibly RMT the service they offer when they ceded some Qol to ease up things on the dev side. I've been admin and mod in several communities, and at some point there's always someone, or some people, who abuse the initial intent of the community to flip RL money. Always.


Add:

And TFT isn't a third party tool or website comparable to PoeNinja, PoB, and the like. It's a community.

Just a couple additional points from some of the replies.

1. I didn't assume or presume that GGG is balancing drops, loot tables, crafting weights, and modifiers on trade and TFT. Chris himself said they do this and consider impacts. Which again is totally fucked up given the 3 month temporary window. God forbid an average player gets slightly better gear for 90 days should there be some sort of unbalanced anomaly.

2. Of course TFT is a 3rd party tool. It's essentially a group finding and trade finding tool. You cannot realistically do this in game, so again, a QoL function has been outsourced. All 3rd party tools are community driven... hence 3rd party

"

trixxar wrote:

You asked what I thought is a better system - well simply put, either
(1) replace services of TFT with ingame systems where in one window is the buyer currency and in the second window is the craft that will be performed on an item from Harvest/recipe/whatever (it could even work with boss killer services where the amount is only paid by the trade window if both parties are in presence of dead boss with X timeframe) or
(2) don't balance around it (and accept this means TFT users have a huge advantage but at least you aren't punishing non-users).

In my solution you dont even have to trust people with your item, nor can it be screwed up on accident.

How is that not better in every way possible?

Other commenter: "if you don't like TFT, create your own platform"

The problem is you have to go to user-run third party apps, at least that is what the game is balanced around. Creating more of this is worse not better.

Fair enough. When people talk about good crafting I assume they are talking about 3.13 Harvest aka good crafting aka peak POE. I don't know how good it was. Was it really "item printing"?

Some people hate TFT because they got banned. More people hate TFT because GGG says it is the reason we can't have good crafting. However, if TFT was gone tomorrow, who believes that GGG give 3.13 Harvest back?

Some options:

A) Current system. Harvest crafts are very rare. If you want to buy a particular craft it is 50ex on TFT.

B) 3.13 harvest or close to it

C) Harvest removed entirely

I think GGG wants option C but will settle for A. A provides the trade friction and B provides no friction at all. It is better for players to complain about TFT than to complain about Harvest removal.

I always run past Harvest now which is what GGG intends I think. I won't complain if GGG completely removes Harvest.

Would people even talk about TFT if Harvest was gone?

"

Silverpelt wrote:

I'm only asking this because this thread turned into a full fledged commercial for TFT with that brainless bad faith-ed drone.

Is this forum a platform to promote or come cry about a 3rd party site like TFT? No

I'm asking because "I lost an argument"? That argument was already lost by your buddy when he dumped a bunch of false information and other made up claims tying to make TFT pass for something it is not. I'm past 40, do you think I give a fck about winning an argument against some kid?

Add:

And TFT isn't a third party tool or website comparable to PoeNinja, PoB, and the like. It's a community.

Eh you still haven't backed up your numbers while anyone can look up mine.

[Removed by Support]

"

zakalwe55 wrote:

"

trixxar wrote:

You asked what I thought is a better system - well simply put, either
(1) replace services of TFT with ingame systems where in one window is the buyer currency and in the second window is the craft that will be performed on an item from Harvest/recipe/whatever (it could even work with boss killer services where the amount is only paid by the trade window if both parties are in presence of dead boss with X timeframe) or
(2) don't balance around it (and accept this means TFT users have a huge advantage but at least you aren't punishing non-users).

In my solution you dont even have to trust people with your item, nor can it be screwed up on accident.

How is that not better in every way possible?

Other commenter: "if you don't like TFT, create your own platform"

The problem is you have to go to user-run third party apps, at least that is what the game is balanced around. Creating more of this is worse not better.

Fair enough. When people talk about good crafting I assume they are talking about 3.13 Harvest aka good crafting aka peak POE. I don't know how good it was. Was it really "item printing"?

Some people hate TFT because they got banned. More people hate TFT because GGG says it is the reason we can't have good crafting. However, if TFT was gone tomorrow, who believes that GGG give 3.13 Harvest back?

Some options:

A) Current system. Harvest crafts are very rare. If you want to buy a particular craft it is 50ex on TFT.

B) 3.13 harvest or close to it

C) Harvest removed entirely

I think GGG wants option C but will settle for A. A provides the trade friction and B provides no friction at all. It is better for players to complain about TFT than to complain about Harvest removal.

I always run past Harvest now which is what GGG intends I think. I won't complain if GGG completely removes Harvest.

Would people even talk about TFT if Harvest was gone?

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Circular_reasoning



Also, Harvest isn't the point of this thread. That point was bought up earlier when Trixx mentioned that if we don't have a good harvest it's because of TFT.

"TFT are running 5way service and they are banning another team for best progress?"


Why did the thread divert from the initial subject to the dead horse Harvest nerf?

Because Harvest & Harvest crafts caused TFT to fucking explode in usage.

That said, I agree the Harvest nerf issue(s) has been debated into glue, and isnt going anywhere new at this point. And they've since been put on a forum vacation, so it's not going further for awhile at least in this thread.

However I think it would be disengenous to think TFT would be where it's at without Harvest, and even more so with the balance to Harvest that dramatically increased its need/usefulness. It's by far the main reason its gotten to where it is now, and since diversified.

Meh I think I'm done here too generally speaking.

The TLDR is that TFT is really bad for the game, and the community overall. It pits players against each other, GGG has no oversight, while simultaneously feeling they must balance around it. It really is a shitstorm that is increasing in strength to a F5 shitnado.

"

DarthSki44 wrote:

^

The problem is that Chris is trying to have it both ways (loot and gear progression balanced around trade, while also saying majority dont trade)

loot and gear progression are not balanced around trade. thats the point. if you trade then loot and gear progression becomes a complete joke, you almost instantly get idiotically powerful gear that facerolls the highest level of maps with an amount of currency you can get from playing 20x t1 maps.

thats not balanced. if you regularly trade your loot and gear progression is completely fked.

"

trixxar wrote:

"

Snorkle_uk wrote:

the game assumes that you never trade for anything.

Right. So they nerfed Harvest crafts like Aug Crit or Add Health or the Tier 4 plants which people, SSF, could find somewhere between every 240 to 320 maps.

Thats why they nerfed it?

Not because you could buy 10 for 10 ex on TFT?

No, you think they nerfed it because finding the option ONCE every 240 maps was way overpowered. And it literally had nothing to do with TFT, which Chris says directly is the best way to use it.

Thats your argument.

Neither you or I have proof, and history shows neither will convince the other, but can you really keep a straight face and tell me you believe your own argument on that one?

they nerfed it because it was stupidly overpowered.

i never bought harvest crafts, i crafted self found harvests for about 8 weeks and the amount of op gear i made was insane.

yes, the best way to play the game was to buy crafts in a discord server. but most people didnt do that, hardly anyone actually did that. i played self found with harvest crafts and sold excess ones in tft, i didnt buy any.

what self found looked like while harvest was in the game is forget all the games proper content. you use lightning warp with herald of thunder ignite prolif, you run a yellow tier t9 atol map and you lightning warp around it in a figure 8 in seconds. thats all you do all day every day because the only thing that matters in the game is harvest. every other way of getting gear is doghshit and should be removed, nothing matters. and what are you even gearing up for? its a loot game and the only items that matter are made from harvest. theres no point in playing any other map than a t9 atol, no other content in the game means anything other than maybe grabbing a high level base item because the biggest reward by far is atol for harvests where mobs are so weak you 1 shot rares with herald of thunder.

you didnt get augs type crafts once in 240 maps, you got probably 100 a day at least.





the game assumes you never trade for anything. that doesnt mean 0 balance happens because of high end play. it doesnt follow that if they make a balance decision because of something uber elite players are doing that the game presumes you are an uber elite player for its overall balance. its a fundamentally flawed logic to begin with, even without the fact that harvest was broken far beyond tft.





harvest people just need to get over it. it was an item printer cheat mode that was stupid and broken. people need to just accept that and move on, its not coming back and no, it was not fine for most people and only broken when you traded it.



i dont think tft pits players agaisnt each other, at all, 99% of the time it brings players together, they have a positive experience and its an alternative to trade chat which is a far more hostile, scam heavy, unregulated wild west. the whole reason tft exists is because it provides genuine oversight that works 99% of the time, which didnt exist before tft. it didnt bring the wild west to trade, trade was already a freeforall clusterfuck and tft fixed 99% of that, to then try and blame them for the 1% of that mess that got carried over is just lacking perspective.