Communication and the Sacred Orb

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Psaakyrn wrote:

You can benchcraft some other mods, but in terms of maximizing defense values, there's no other option. There's a reason why they SPECIFICALLY mention top-end ES values when talking about this specific benchcraft.

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KaseyM21 wrote:

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Psaakyrn wrote:

You can benchcraft some other mods, but in terms of maximizing defense values, there's no other option. There's a reason why they SPECIFICALLY mention top-end ES values when talking about this specific benchcraft.

Dexterity increases Evasion,
Intelligence increases Energy Shield.
(It's weird that Armor Doesn't scale with Strength).

Not to the base item, but there are suffixes that maximize defenses. However, I just want to point out that saying "there is no suffix benchcraft to maximize defense values" isn't really a good argument. You can say that about a lot of things "There is no mod I can craft to maximize x" . There is nothing wrong with that being the case. Tbh, the only bad thing about removing the quality craft I can find is that now it's harder to 6-link non-unique items.

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Psaakyrn wrote:

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KaseyM21 wrote:

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Psaakyrn wrote:

You can benchcraft some other mods, but in terms of maximizing defense values, there's no other option. There's a reason why they SPECIFICALLY mention top-end ES values when talking about this specific benchcraft.

Dexterity increases Evasion,
Intelligence increases Energy Shield.
(It's weird that Armor Doesn't scale with Strength).

Not to the base item, but there are suffixes that maximize defenses. However, I just want to point out that saying "there is no suffix benchcraft to maximize defense values" isn't really a good argument. You can say that about a lot of things "There is no mod I can craft to maximize x" . There is nothing wrong with that being the case. Tbh, the only bad thing about removing the quality craft I can find is that now it's harder to 6-link non-unique items.

Fine, the stats does increase defense values slightly... and is also negligible compared to quality which improves base item values, which is where most of the benefit is because of the prefixes which further multiplies base values. That and the quality crafts also adds stats anyway, meaning you're still having a far inferior craft that doesn't get the benefit of quality. (unless you're stat stacking to the point where the +% stat option gives more than 30-35 of the relevant stat)

Therefore the difference is still that for maximum defense values, you lose out on quality since you'd be adding stats regardless.

And yes, the argument for "there is no mod I can craft to maximize x" is valid, because there WAS such a mod, there now isn't, replaced by something that can't be crafted unless you source for an item 3 times rarer than an exalt.

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KaseyM21 wrote:

It's not a valid argument because saying "it existed before so it shouldn't be removed" isn't a valid argument. We are arguing whether the replacement is good or bad. You aren't answering why it shouldn't be removed. You are only saying it shouldn't be because it exists. Things get added and removed all the time, so it's existence doesn't mean it shouldn't be removed.

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Psaakyrn wrote:

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KaseyM21 wrote:

So many people are missing the point. The new hidden quality gives another axis for an item to improve in value. It won't change value of items that have good mods. If you have a 0% hidden quality item that has all perfect rolls. The item's value is not diminished in the slightest. This goes for all levels of items. The quality of an item will never diminish the value of it because it is only a miniscule amount of defense you are losing out of. However, finding better quality versions of bases will provide extra value for those items. Basically the floor value of items hasn't changed, but the ceiling value has.

And you're missing that they also removed item quality crafts, which effectively reduced an axis for an item to improve too. The two effectively cancels out, except one is actually crafted instead of rng, while the other doesn't use a mod slot. People prefer reliability.

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KaseyM21 wrote:

It's not a valid argument because saying "it existed before so it shouldn't be removed" isn't a valid argument. We are arguing whether the replacement is good or bad. You aren't answering why it shouldn't be removed. You are only saying it shouldn't be because it exists. Things get added and removed all the time, so it's existence doesn't mean it shouldn't be removed.

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Nssheepster wrote:

There is just no reason for the armor modifier to exist. Do you want more defenses from a crafting base, Chris? THEN ADD THEM DIRECTLY. There is NO need to add EVEN MORE layers of RNG BS to a game that is actively losing players to RNG BS. RNG BS is one of THE top reasons players cite for LEAVING, Chris! Adding MORE, and then, atop that, adding EVEN more? That's NOT going to make people happy, Chris.

First we need a base of the right Ilvl
Then the right basetype
Then the 6ling, which has been too expensive for literal years now
Then the crafting, in which we get to deal with tier after tier and roll after roll of complete garbage we don't want. Why are there so many tiers that can roll on these high end bases? Because RNG!

Now you want to either make the base we need even HARDER to get... Or cause us to spend and insanely expensive orb to 'fix' it. Crafting is already insanely RNG dependent, expensive, and so complicated that 99% of the playerbase couldn't craft a GG item without an outside tool open.

If you want to add complexity to the game (Despite it already being heftily complex), then add actual options, choices, as you already do. This is not choice. There's no reason to CHOOSE to have an objectively worse item, Chris.

And that's all you're doing here. You're making it harder to get a good basetype, and making all the basetypes that get a 'bad' roll unusable. Now, instead of all Ilvl 84 Vaal Regalias being good... Maybe a tenth of them have the max roll? Maybe worse? How bad is the rolling here, Chris? All you've done is made clear that those not-perfectly-rolled bases simply shouldn't be used, as they are objectively, factually, worse than a perfectly rolled base. And if you're already going through the brain mangling RNG lottery that is self-crafting.... There's just no reason to do it on an already 'bad' base.

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ToBeSomebody wrote:

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KaseyM21 wrote:

It's not a valid argument because saying "it existed before so it shouldn't be removed" isn't a valid argument. We are arguing whether the replacement is good or bad. You aren't answering why it shouldn't be removed. You are only saying it shouldn't be because it exists. Things get added and removed all the time, so it's existence doesn't mean it shouldn't be removed.

I disagree with your statement about it not being valid. You're trying to apologize for the decisions being made by making them seem 'good' or at least net neutral, but take a step back for a moment and consider the reason that people are so upset about it, and why they continue to refute your statements.

That reason is almost certainly because players feel like something has been taken from them. It's the perception that this is, by in large, a negative change--and their reasoning is sound. Consider the following:

- GGG said they would improve base defenses. This leads us to believe defenses (all of them) will be better.* %Quality crafts are then removed from the bench, and the maximum potential value of armors is increased, but perfection is sealed away behind the sacred orb/dumb luck.

(*This is perception again, not necessarily correct in our thinking.)

And so at a quick glance, what's happened is: My guaranteed ES Suffix craft is gone, and the replacement is a hopeful good drop on a base piece, or an exorbitant amount of money (Sacred orb) to pray to RNG that I get a good roll.

So while you argue semantics and your points are definitely valid, so are all of the complaints. Currently I lean toward the 'negative change' side of the field, though I haven't played ES in a long time. I try to put myself in the shoes of someone who has spent many leagues crafting ES items, and they've just been told that their 'ceiling has been raised,' but only if you can afford one of these very rare orbs or are lucky enough to find one--and only if it improves the item, instead of lowering the value, which can also happen.

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KaseyM21 wrote:

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ToBeSomebody wrote:

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KaseyM21 wrote:

It's not a valid argument because saying "it existed before so it shouldn't be removed" isn't a valid argument. We are arguing whether the replacement is good or bad. You aren't answering why it shouldn't be removed. You are only saying it shouldn't be because it exists. Things get added and removed all the time, so it's existence doesn't mean it shouldn't be removed.

I disagree with your statement about it not being valid. You're trying to apologize for the decisions being made by making them seem 'good' or at least net neutral, but take a step back for a moment and consider the reason that people are so upset about it, and why they continue to refute your statements.

That reason is almost certainly because players feel like something has been taken from them. It's the perception that this is, by in large, a negative change--and their reasoning is sound. Consider the following:

- GGG said they would improve base defenses. This leads us to believe defenses (all of them) will be better.* %Quality crafts are then removed from the bench, and the maximum potential value of armors is increased, but perfection is sealed away behind the sacred orb/dumb luck.

(*This is perception again, not necessarily correct in our thinking.)

And so at a quick glance, what's happened is: My guaranteed ES Suffix craft is gone, and the replacement is a hopeful good drop on a base piece, or an exorbitant amount of money (Sacred orb) to pray to RNG that I get a good roll.

So while you argue semantics and your points are definitely valid, so are all of the complaints. Currently I lean toward the 'negative change' side of the field, though I haven't played ES in a long time. I try to put myself in the shoes of someone who has spent many leagues crafting ES items, and they've just been told that their 'ceiling has been raised,' but only if you can afford one of these very rare orbs or are lucky enough to find one--and only if it improves the item, instead of lowering the value, which can also happen.

huh? I'm not trying to apologize for anything. Is that a typo?

I wasn't saying the argument to not like the change is invalid. Just the specific one I was being given. Though that sounds condescending, it is just my own opinion.

Defenses were buffed outside of the base rolls on the bases. Armor and Evasion got better calculations while there is more ES on the tree now (though I'm pretty sure ES didn't need a buff in the first place. We are already past the levels when they nerfed it last time.)

I'm definitely not arguing semantics. So the things that make up an item are:
base
implicits
explicits
enchant
sockets
links
quality
Influence
Transform (Scourge)

I might be missing some, but these are the "axes" of an item that determines value. The new change adds a whole other axes with 'hidden quality'. I already explained how this effects value of an item in a previous post so I won't repeat myself. The quality mod was just a random mod in the explicits axis and pointing that out isn't arguing semantics.

I believe this at the very least shows that the new 'hidden quality' does more to add value to items. So I hope there is no argument on this point.

However, it seems the concerns of the people who dislike this change are about what you mentioned: people don't want a harder ceiling. It may be true that it's harder to reach the ceiling for defenses, but there are a few positives out of this that I can think of:
1) You no longer require an open suffix on body armor and shields
2) the hidden quality effects ALL base types with an inherent defense. So it effects items you weren't able to craft quality onto (gloves/helms/boots). These items will always be better than last league unless you happen to roll 0% hidden quality.

In my opinion, the positives outweigh the negative of a harder ceiling.

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First Problem:
The Veiled modifier that increases quality on equipment was required to maximise the Energy Shield from an item. This is a problem because you cannot pick up the best Energy Shield items off the ground.

Second Problem:
Stacking the "Energy from Naught" notable passive on Cluster Jewels was too efficient as a way to maximise your Energy Shield.

Solution:
Replace the Veiled modifier and lower the power on the Energy from Naught Notable. Compensate all characters for the loss of maximum energy shield by increasing the strength of all Energy Shield base types. Add more Energy Shield to the passive skill tree.

-- Energy Shield provided by base types can now be up to 20% higher, as part of a variable base type system detailed below.

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Energy Shield provided by base types has been increased by 5% on average, and can now be an additional 15% higher than this on average, as part of a variable base type system detailed below.