Other games with absurdly overcomplicated character customization?

The main draw of PoE for me is the extreme breadth of character optimization options. Using 5 seemingly unrelated mechanics together for a beautiful combo is what it's all about.


Any other games out there similar? The more inclined I am to make a spreadsheet, the better.

How far afield are you looking to go?

If you're staying in ARPG Town™ then my default recommendation would likely be Grim Dawn. You pick two classes, your skills, your "devotions" (a cool passives system; fairly proc-heavy), and, of course, it's an ARPG so there's an item hunt front and centre. There's a few expansions but they have a lot of content and are frequently on sale. Do note that it's an offline experience - so you'll be SSFing, but there's some amazing mods¹ available. You'll either love this aspect or hate it.

¹ Example 1


If you're open to adjacent genres, there's a few additional options. I've no personal experience with it, but I have several friends who played Black Desert Online. Most or all of them have quit and the consensus seems to be that it's best days are behind it, but it's an MMO with a massive amount of customization so it might be worth looking into recent video reviews of it. Some P2W concerns.


If you don't care about genre at all, then the first game to come to mind was EVE Online. It's a very different game - you're a spaceship pilot, 'arry - but it offers a vast amount of content and customization options. Similarities with PoE include it being very demanding in terms of both knowledge and time - you have to be willing to learn, and you'll definitely be grinding.

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kaijyuu2 wrote:

Any other games out there similar? The more inclined I am to make a spreadsheet, the better.

Spreadsheets, you say? You sure about that chief?

Well as mentioned above, the other complex ARPG is Grim Dawn, albeit its endgame isn't as big.

And the other game that is actually way more complex than PoE is, also as mentioned above, Eve Online. Be warned that many Eve players treat it as almost a second job.

However, if you really want that spreadsheet experience, then look up a little known title called Aurora 4X. Don't say I didn't warn you..

Here's a great review of it (there's plenty of content covering Grim Dawn and Eve Online...online) as an appetizer - https://youtu.be/9xhUGGEnJcU

The Dominions series by Ilwinter.

Good luck.

I dare OP to actually play any character to max level and/or map tier.

I understand other games don't have maps but w/e the post storyline equivalent.

I've played a bit of grim dawn... had it's issues. Maybe I should give it another shot.

Re: MMOs and the like. Multiplayer is fine but eh... I want to spend most my time in the character building menus. EVE online in particular is Capitalism Simulator, and I'm not really into economic games.

Also not a big fan of 4x games.



Let me clarify. There are typically two types of games I like:
- Complicated in the preparation phase, simple in the execution phase. PoE is this, as the actual gameplay is mostly running around exploding things with one button.
- Simple in the preparation phase, complicated in the execution phase. Action-y games like platformers, fighting games, MMOs like WoW/ff14, etc are these.

I'm looking for more of the former. Games where I set up a stack of dominoes and then can enjoy watching them fall. Then do it again to make it better. NOTE: This is distinct from a puzzle game in that there isn't a "right" answer (at least not an easily solvable one), but rather it's an NP-hard optimization problem with some fun other stuff attached.


Asking me to do complicated rotations, input button combinations, micromanage units, etc: No.
Asking me to do a series of distinct puzzles: No.
Asking me to meticulously engineer various game mechanics to optimize numbers and iteratively produce better results: Yes.


I would almost say a game like Factorio fits my criteria, except there's nothing really to do with your giant factory. The doing a bunch of calculations and experiments and coming up with a nicely optimized output is right, but ideally there would also be something satisfying to do like PoE's exploding monsters with a colorful light show.

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I dare OP to actually play any character to max level and/or map tier.

If you're talking about PoE, my highest character was 99, and I've done all the the end game bosses multiple times in multiple leagues.

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kaijyuu2 wrote:

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I dare OP to actually play any character to max level and/or map tier.

If you're talking about PoE, my highest character was 99, and I've done all the the end game bosses multiple times in multiple leagues.

Hmm.

I love myself a good spreadsheet, and when I was looking at what I had casually saved I couldn't help but notice that, in my case, I plan far, far more characters than I actually play. And the ones I do play, I don't play that much.

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kaijyuu2 wrote:

an NP-hard optimization problem

Now I'm scared to ask what your day job is...

Anyway, why not the CRPG games then? Like Divinity Original 2, Baldur's Gate, Pillars of Eternity, etc.? Pathfinder: Kingmaker also technically features here, albeit it actually goes even further than just char management (but that might be perfect for scratching that complexity itch).

I'd venture to recommend the MOBA genre as well, but I suppose you've already considered and rejected it.

But if you want another ARPG, then maybe consider wishlisting Alaloth: Champions of The Four Kingdoms. It's not out yet, so I don't know if it'll actually be what you're after. But you've likely already heard of the other ARPG titles that receive chatter on here (Last Epoch, Lost Ark, Torchlight, Warhammer Inquisitor, etc.) and already rejected them. Alaloth is rather less well known, so maybe something you haven't considered before but worth keeping an eye on.

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Now I'm scared to ask what your day job is...

Househusband :) Though I've got programming projects as my main "productive" hobby. Programming itself scratches a similar itch but all too often the problems are either already solved and I'm just going through rote means to implement them or are TOO broad and I'm hit with choice paralysis rather than having fun.


Yeah Baldur's Gate (and some of the other games like icewind dale) was semi-recently my game of choice once I figured out how to mod it. Lots of fun making multi-classes with kits, not normally allowed but opens tons of OP combos. Optimizing parties and the like was great too. Too bad the later parts of BG2 and ToB were such garbage.

Pillars of eternity put me off actually. They seemed to want to actively discourage min/maxing. Failed to do so of course, and instead made things just unintuitive. Gotta stack might on your casters!

MOBAs have a toxic community culture. I played warcraft 3 Back in the Day and stayed away from DotA as much as possible, mainly due to the typical player. The point of those seems to be less about playing and more about venting frustrations, typically at your "allies".


I've actually not taken a look at most the other arpgs, mostly because I'd vaguely heard from others that they're more "streamlined" than PoE. Diablo 3 is obviously far too simplistic, and for reasons I don't quite recall I hated torchlight 1 when I played it soon after it came out. Might give grim dawn another shot, maybe look at last epoch since it seems to be hyped at the moment.

Gave Grim Dawn another shot recently... and it was good! Not PoE level but decent. I was able to make a half dozen builds and experiment with them, which was fun. Downsides include pigeonholing into particular unique items since there's literally 0 other way to get important things like damage conversion or added damage to spells. Also lack of an end game aside from a few bosses and high scores for gimmicky modes (could really use procedurally generated dungeons and the like). I feel I explored the character customization breadth in a week or so, which is better than most games but again not like PoE's absurd breadth.


Gonna try last epoch next.