[3.14-3.16 HC Updated] HOAG Champ. ~7k Life Gain on hit/sec vs. single target. All Content <Videos>

I played the Juggernaut variant during Heist and seriously enjoyed it. While looking for a tanky boi for Ultimatum farming, I came across this update and I'm seriously glad to see you still focusing on this content. I played Barrage last time, and had no issues -- but I recall that with Juggernaut, you offered advice for those looking for a Cyclone variant. I figured with Ultimatums benefiting so much from builds that offer constant movement and repositioning, you'd have focused on that this time around. Is there a particular reason you're excluding cyclone from this guide, or it it still at the discretion of the player with vaguely equivalent results?

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Drydus wrote:

I played the Juggernaut variant during Heist and seriously enjoyed it. While looking for a tanky boi for Ultimatum farming, I came across this update and I'm seriously glad to see you still focusing on this content. I played Barrage last time, and had no issues -- but I recall that with Juggernaut, you offered advice for those looking for a Cyclone variant. I figured with Ultimatums benefiting so much from builds that offer constant movement and repositioning, you'd have focused on that this time around. Is there a particular reason you're excluding cyclone from this guide, or it it still at the discretion of the player with vaguely equivalent results?

Hahahaha.

Ok. The answer is I looked at the barrage version first and was very pleased with it. I am literally in the process of leveling another champ to experiment with cyclone.

We'll find out. :)

[Edit] OK, the above is true but a little flip. My first thought was that the barrage version would be well able to tank/sustain in an ultimatum because of the degree of LGOH. I have also generally favored barrage since cluster jewels came out because of the greater ease of sustaining a higher level of virulence than cyclone can.

That said, I am looking forward to my dual CIP experiment. And very glad you enjoyed the original version. :)

-O

[Edit] see below for result of the dual CIP experiment and explanation why I would not recommend it in 3.14.

Thanks for the quick reply, and clarification! Yeah, I just started mine up -- the great thing about your format for both the Juggernaut and the Champion is that it requires very little to mod for either set-up. Regardless of which one I start with, transitioning to the other is a snap for your structure of build.

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Drydus wrote:

I played the Juggernaut variant during Heist and seriously enjoyed it. While looking for a tanky boi for Ultimatum farming, I came across this update and I'm seriously glad to see you still focusing on this content. I played Barrage last time, and had no issues -- but I recall that with Juggernaut, you offered advice for those looking for a Cyclone variant. I figured with Ultimatums benefiting so much from builds that offer constant movement and repositioning, you'd have focused on that this time around. Is there a particular reason you're excluding cyclone from this guide, or it it still at the discretion of the player with vaguely equivalent results?

So the results of my further experimenting and tinkering are in and they are not close. The cyclone version of the build appears significantly inferior in 3.14 for the following reasons:


1. LGOH/sec is not close--the mobility, even with extra available dodge, does not make up for the gap. Cyclone ends up with around 10-12 hits/second in a small aoe. Barrage is getting a minimum of 54 hits/second against one close range target + the extra effects of Volley fire and pierce during mapping and ultimatums. I can confirm by feel that while the barrage version feels close to invulnerable most of the time you are attacking, the cyclone version feels much more fragile and actually requires periodic flasking during a fight.



2. The damage is also not close for multiple reasons:
a. I played around with several configurations in POB, and also tested manually what Cyclone can maintain in terms of virulence on a reasonable tree. And the answer, sadly, is about 38-40 stacks on a single target. Not even 45 and nowhere close to 70. The extra 6 gem levels from the Cold iron points roughly double the base damage. But the 70 virulence on the barrage version give roughly 5.35x the base damage. Even a more tanky barrage variation, at only 60 virulence, would be granting 3.375x the base damage. And as discussed below, the barrage version can also get a higher base damage (before applying virulence) than the cyclone version

b. It is not possible to usefully equip white triad grips with cyclone, because there is no secondary 6L to hold cyclone>poison>Faster attacks>withering touch>LGOH>inc duration. This gives up another 33% more multiplier at the top end.

c. It is more difficult for cyclone to maintain 15 stacks of wither. At 12 aps (which is generous and requires some nodes devoted to attack speed) we can expect Cyclone to average 3 wither stacks per second. With a fully leveled and qualitied inc duration, we can get the wither duration up to about 3.5 seconds, yielding 10-11 stacks of wither. It is possible to supplement this with another 6-7 stacks from withering step to reach the cap of 15, but this both adds complexity and uses up a charge of our main movement skill (dash).



Just after the initial nerfs to Hoag and before cluster jewels appeared, dual wielding CIPs was a viable style (though it was always more fragile), hence the place in the original guide. But once you add in the further nerf to Hoag's baseline, Cyclone falls far behind because of its inability to make good use of Pure Agony nodes in a single target situation.

Based on my testing and the information I currently have available, I judge CIP/Cyclone to be much weaker than the Quill Rain/Barrage version in 3.14.

-O

Thanks for sharing the build!

I copied your PoB (using PoB community) and for leveling purposes I was checking the DPS using a glove with Despair on hit and I noticed that the DPS of the crawler did not change and I assume the crawler has built-in 40% physical to chaos conversation, right?

DO you have any clues why that might be happening?

thanks for sharing the build concept, it is really cool

RE: Frenzy charges

Charges on the crawler do provide some benefit. Each charge on the crawler is 15% increased attack speed and 4% more damage. A crawler with 70 virulence already has 280% increased attack speed. So with 3 charges the speed portion works out to a little under 12% more and the damage portion a little over 12% more. Call it 25% more overall damage for 3 charges on the crawler.

But the question is, how were you planning to keep frenzy charges up on the crawler with our set up?

Re: Despair

I sometimes have had trouble getting POB to calculate the effect of curses. Go to skills and make sure that despair is checked as active and you have no other curse active. Let me know if that helps.

Luck,
-O

If I read Supreme Grandstanding correctly, the crawler would share its charges with you, meaning you would benefit from its charges. But I do not believe this lets the crawler share your charges (assuming you generated any). Happy to be told I am wrong if this is incorrect. If this actually works, then the extra 25% more multiplier for the frenzy charges is likely to be worthwhile (though it will have the downside of additional enemy damage, which may decrease survivability--would need some testing)

-O

Please confirm--having that node selected is actually generating charges for the Crawler? I want to make sure I'm not misunderstanding. I've looked at multiple threads now that suggest this is not how it works.

Yes, the crawler is an ally, but the sharing appears to run only one direction--From Crawler to you, not from you to Crawler.

-O

Lol. Gratz on the grips and GL on the QR.
:>


-O

I'm confused. How does a Triad Grip with only 3 sockets (white) convert 100% and not 75%? And if it does, is it preferable to have a 3 or 4 socket?