Reminder: Resolute Technique still provides minimal value over non-RT builds ever since Acc buff.

resolute technique has ever been a newb trap for melee builds, closely followed by 2h melee.

and yes, i loved it.

edit: i loved the boost that it gives you around level 60 which faded the more you went into endgame.
but then i also loved 2h because of the look of the fights and going 2h crit would have been kindof a dumb move.
and, additionally, i never really went far into endgame and got the multi exalt crit 1 handers that would be needed there.

"

ArtCrusade wrote:

I do not agree with anything said here. RT has its use for casters who use attacks that need to hit to apply secondary effects who cannot invest into accuracy. While it may only be applicable for the most budget builds right now and anyone with more experience / money will be better off without it in terms of melee builds, it has its niche

If RT, as is, is so important, then why do none of your characters use it?

You would do well to remember that RT doesn't just prevent your attacks from critting, but also your spells as well, even though they can never be evaded anyhow. So this means that it severely handicaps your range of spellcasting options.

It also largely forgoes any form of using an "Attack-proc'd spell" build; CoC and Cospri's explicitly require your attack crit, and Poet's Pen doesn't actually require you HIT to proc, which leaves... Mjölner, which is, understandably, largely ignored.

And for so many builds, you can just also take a Lycosidae or just mastercraft the "Vagan's" prefix on your weapon. Your argument basically comes down to "well, what if a non-crit caster wants to be able to proc Fortify reliably?" when the answer is supposed to be "Fortify isn't supposed to be freely available for all classes, and was meant to make melee more playable."

RT once served a purpose, back when it was actually difficult to stack up enough accuracy and crit to make a crit build worthwhile; my first three melee builds all used RT. (I've since had to rework all of them, and none have RT anymore) It's just a way to intentionally gimp your build, and really serves no purpose as-is.

"

ACGIFT wrote:

"

ArtCrusade wrote:

I do not agree with anything said here. RT has its use for casters who use attacks that need to hit to apply secondary effects who cannot invest into accuracy. While it may only be applicable for the most budget builds right now and anyone with more experience / money will be better off without it in terms of melee builds, it has its niche

If RT, as is, is so important, then why do none of your characters use it?

You would do well to remember that RT doesn't just prevent your attacks from critting, but also your spells as well, even though they can never be evaded anyhow. So this means that it severely handicaps your range of spellcasting options.

It also largely forgoes any form of using an "Attack-proc'd spell" build; CoC and Cospri's explicitly require your attack crit, and Poet's Pen doesn't actually require you HIT to proc, which leaves... Mjölner, which is, understandably, largely ignored.

And for so many builds, you can just also take a Lycosidae or just mastercraft the "Vagan's" prefix on your weapon. Your argument basically comes down to "well, what if a non-crit caster wants to be able to proc Fortify reliably?" when the answer is supposed to be "Fortify isn't supposed to be freely available for all classes, and was meant to make melee more playable."

RT once served a purpose, back when it was actually difficult to stack up enough accuracy and crit to make a crit build worthwhile; my first three melee builds all used RT. (I've since had to rework all of them, and none have RT anymore) It's just a way to intentionally gimp your build, and really serves no purpose as-is.

it does serve a purpose, lyco is absolute garbage, for one node on the tree ur not gonna use a surrender or a saffels etc? even a 100 life, 1500 evasion tripple res shield on a 9% movement base, or a shield with big life, big armour and attack speed? saffells has what? +4 max res? if that was one node on the tree everyone would get it. why would anyone wear that trash shield on a non crit build if they could reach rt?

your first 3 melee builds all used RT, well to me that sounds like a problem. Why is it a good thing that non crit attack builds should feel like they always have to go to one place on the tree and pick one specific keystone rather than having using accuracy be an actual viable alternative to that node?

if uve got a marauder running around with a disfavour and RT is right there its not essential, it shouldnt be essential, but its also worth at least 3 gear suffixes on items like rings that can roll attack speed, resist, core stats etc and shuts down any mechanic that would would bring u down from 100% hit chance, unlike stacking acc.

how many of ur builds took unwavering stance? how many took bloodmagic? how many bow builds take iron grip? how many take arrow dancing?

it serves a clear purpose, it is used in builds and is the correct choice for them, its just not the only option, they can actually weigh up trying to fit high rolled acc on both rings along with the other stats they want + using a maxed precision aura vs just taking that node.


i feel like accuracy should be the default approach for an attack build and RT should be an option that a minority take like most keystones.

"

Snorkle_uk wrote:

it does serve a purpose, lyco is absolute garbage, for one node on the tree ur not gonna use a surrender or a saffels etc? even a 100 life, 1500 evasion tripple res shield on a 9% movement base, or a shield with big life, big armour and attack speed?

And again, you're willfuly ignoring that it prohibits you from critting, even with spells.

Lycosidae is actually pretty invaluable to a number of CoC builds. (its primary users) It used to be a meta item before the accuracy changes made it trivial for a wide range of builds to get 100% accuracy while building crit.

Sure, yes, there are BETTER shields, but it's a matter of shuffling stats: a CoC build that sticks to the top half of the passive tree is not going to be able to get their accuracy up without sacrificing FAR more than what a rare shield could provide them.

"

Snorkle_uk wrote:

your first 3 melee builds all used RT, well to me that sounds like a problem. Why is it a good thing that non crit attack builds should feel like they always have to go to one place on the tree and pick one specific keystone rather than having using accuracy be an actual viable alternative to that node?

I wasn't saying it was mandatory then, just that's the way I opted to build my melee, and that it WAS a viable method. (this included my first "all challenges done" league, Talisman) I had built a number of crit builds (non melee) in the interim.

This tangent of yours is entirely something uninvited, and really comes off as your taking an opportunity to rant about an off-topic subject.

"

Snorkle_uk wrote:

how many of ur builds took unwavering stance? how many took bloodmagic? how many bow builds take iron grip? how many take arrow dancing?

I've taken all of them at least once (All three RT builds were US, BTW) though in some cases I have, of course, rebuilt the characters.

"

Snorkle_uk wrote:

it serves a clear purpose, it is used in builds and is the correct choice for them, its just not the only option, they can actually weigh up trying to fit high rolled acc on both rings along with the other stats they want + using a maxed precision aura vs just taking that node.

It USED TO serve a purpose. It's garbage now, when you can readily build 100% accuracy AND crit on anyone that'd be able to reach that node.

Your attempt to engage in "Whataboutism" for other keystones (which falls flat, BTW, since I've made use of just about every keystone that existed pre-3.0) does nothing to address the issue at hand.

"

Snorkle_uk wrote:

i feel like accuracy should be the default approach for an attack build and RT should be an option that a minority take like most keystones.

That's not how keystones were EVER designed. They were meant to be the next big thing to define your character, after your class. Many keystones have always been taken as near-mandatory for many types of build: Acro+Phase acro, for instance, has always been mandatory for evasion-based bow builds. EE is automatically best for any build that can use it, (e.g, golemancers, RF, etc.) while Pain Attunement is the defining node for "Low Life" builds that makes them even a thing. (to say nothing of the eponymous "Chaos Innoculation" builds!)

Keystones were always meant to be ways to define a character... And many have just been power-crept to pointlessness; some have fared alright, but Resolute Technique has definitely been left in the dust.

"

Snorkle_uk wrote:

how many of ur builds took unwavering stance? how many took bloodmagic? how many bow builds take iron grip? how many take arrow dancing?
it serves a clear purpose, it is used in builds and is the correct choice for them, its just not the only option, they can actually weigh up trying to fit high rolled acc on both rings along with the other stats they want + using a maxed precision aura vs just taking that node.
i feel like accuracy should be the default approach for an attack build and RT should be an option that a minority take like most keystones.

Every righteous fire or non-cirit elemental damage bds will take EO.
So make RT be a attacking version EO still make sense.

BD diversity, right? So it's unfair that you can choose EO for your non-crit elemental damage bds, but you have no choice for your non-crit physical attack bd.

Anyway, I don't use RT and will not use it even if they buff it to have double damage multiplier. I just think non-crit physical attacking bds should have similar choice to elemental ones.

As a resident RT user - I still manage myself on the 5-6 RT builds that I made, which are decent up to a point - the problem of the power discrepancy, where you have Crit outputing at least 4 times more damage, and EO at least 40% more for no real cost these days - killing Accuracy as a REAL INVESTMENT is supposed to help build diversity how??? - these 2 options are the ONLY SANE ONES at hand.

Never mind those that employed dual wielding RT REAL MELEE builds which have PoE on UBER HARD MODE ON with the recent damage nerfs and enemy HP buffs, RT has fallen too much behind. It simply lacks a proper benefit, as "Hits can't be evaded" became a damn weapon affix and has NO DRAWBACK, while being one of the best investments a Crit/EO build could make...

I'm entirely on the opposite side @Snorkle_uk, something like a further focus like having only the max damage value from weapons apply while not allowing asinine scaling and a further introduction of a mechanic that makes you play DIFFERENTLY can be a proper incentive regarding DIVERSITY, and bringing a breath of fresh air to the game, without breaking it or make anything else redundant.

In their "wisdom", TencentGGG need to reduce the damn Mariana's Trench from the current RT damage output compared to EO and Crit, as that simply hinders their balance endeavors regarding said aspect.

And I would loath to see them simply tag a "xx% chance to deal double damage" on a CONSISTENCY based keystone "just because"...

PS: Still managing to kill T16 content with those RT builds, yet by increasing the HP and nerfing melee damage, bosses take at least 4 times longer - last Phoenix fight was a boring "test your reflexes" for 12-15 min, just like the Elderslayers, and that simply KILLS FUN by forcing you to foolproof facetanking and/or get multi-million Shaper DPS.

Much diversity, much "wow"...

RT is by far one of the best leveling nodes for early mapping. You take that and don't need any investment in accuracy until you get your gear situated. Everything doesn't need to a build defining potential powerhouse. It just needs a use.

"

ACGIFT wrote:

"

Snorkle_uk wrote:

it does serve a purpose, lyco is absolute garbage, for one node on the tree ur not gonna use a surrender or a saffels etc? even a 100 life, 1500 evasion tripple res shield on a 9% movement base, or a shield with big life, big armour and attack speed?

And again, you're willfuly ignoring that it prohibits you from critting, even with spells.

so what were the lines you deleted after my quote there?

"

it does serve a purpose, lyco is absolute garbage, for one node on the tree ur not gonna use a surrender or a saffels etc? even a 100 life, 1500 evasion tripple res shield on a 9% movement base, or a shield with big life, big armour and attack speed? saffells has what? +4 max res? if that was one node on the tree everyone would get it. why would anyone wear that trash shield on a non crit build if they could reach rt?

were talking about non crit builds.

seeing as I made over 2 mirrors in 4 days ancient orbing titicus spans into lycos I think its safe to say Im aware that other builds use that shield.

"

ACGIFT wrote:

Sure, yes, there are BETTER shields, but it's a matter of shuffling stats: a CoC build that sticks to the top half of the passive tree is not going to be able to get their accuracy up without sacrificing FAR more than what a rare shield could provide them.

just like some marauders using a 2h weapon with 5% base crit are not going to be able to get much out of crit with axes or maces, so RT is still a perfectly viable choice for them.

"

ACGIFT wrote:

"

Snorkle_uk wrote:

your first 3 melee builds all used RT, well to me that sounds like a problem. Why is it a good thing that non crit attack builds should feel like they always have to go to one place on the tree and pick one specific keystone rather than having using accuracy be an actual viable alternative to that node?

I wasn't saying it was mandatory then, just that's the way I opted to build my melee, and that it WAS a viable method. (this included my first "all challenges done" league, Talisman) I had built a number of crit builds (non melee) in the interim.

im saying the general feeling was that it was a mandatory node to take for anyone making an attack build that wasnt specialising into crit. People, even in this thread, talk about crit and rt. they say "rt builds cant keep up with crit"... ok, well non rt + non crit phys melee builds are in exactly the same position as rt phys melee, they invest EVEN MORE in order to exist as a non crit build than rt users do and they have roughly the same damage.

but its taken as a given, theres crit, and then theres rt, thats how the community has talked about melee builds for close to 7 years now. if you are not crit then you are rt, we can sum up non crit as 'rt' because its been seen as such a mandatory node if you are not crit that its name can be used to describe all non crit.

"

ACGIFT wrote:

This tangent of yours is entirely something uninvited, and really comes off as your taking an opportunity to rant about an off-topic subject.

its not a tangent, its extremely relevent to why accuracy was buffed to become a valid alternative to RT as it always should have been.

"

ACGIFT wrote:

"

Snorkle_uk wrote:

it serves a clear purpose, it is used in builds and is the correct choice for them, its just not the only option, they can actually weigh up trying to fit high rolled acc on both rings along with the other stats they want + using a maxed precision aura vs just taking that node.

It USED TO serve a purpose. It's garbage now, when you can readily build 100% accuracy AND crit on anyone that'd be able to reach that node.

Your attempt to engage in "Whataboutism" for other keystones (which falls flat, BTW, since I've made use of just about every keystone that existed pre-3.0) does nothing to address the issue at hand.

no it clearly does serve a purpose, many builds dont invest in crit and for some of those builds using rt rather than investing in accuracy is a valid, smart choice. its also a valid choice to be not crit AND not take rt with some of those builds, which always should have been a valid choice and yet really wasnt a lot of the time.

"

ACGIFT wrote:

"

Snorkle_uk wrote:

i feel like accuracy should be the default approach for an attack build and RT should be an option that a minority take like most keystones.

That's not how keystones were EVER designed.

thats exactly how keystones were designed, how most operate and have always operated.

"

ACGIFT wrote:

Many keystones have always been taken as near-mandatory for many types of build: Acro+Phase acro, for instance, has always been mandatory for evasion-based bow builds. EE is automatically best for any build that can use it, (e.g, golemancers, RF, etc.) while Pain Attunement is the defining node for "Low Life" builds that makes them even a thing. (to say nothing of the eponymous "Chaos Innoculation" builds!)

Keystones were always meant to be ways to define a character... And many have just been power-crept to pointlessness; some have fared alright, but Resolute Technique has definitely been left in the dust.

low life is a niche, golemancers and rf are extremely niche. acro being mandatory for life evasion bow builds is not good, thats another example of a node that is probably too ubiquitous, as was ondars that rightly got nerfed into a niche were keystones belong, just like iron reflexes did.

they stop defining ur build if they are not a niche, they stop being you specialisation and start becoming ur generalisation which stops them giving you a focused identity.


RT is still a node that makes sense and will be used on more builds in practice than unwavering, iron grip, arrow dancing, iron reflexes, blood magic, avatar of fire, crimson dance, basically any keystone in that area of the tree and many beyond. its still in the upper half of keystones in order of relevance, usefulness.



crit vs non crit is an area that obviously needs balance, the fact that has been worded as crit vs rt for so long is an abomination and was rightly changed. crit should be a specialisation, not being crit on strength melee builds is just the default, crit is an int/dex thing, a keystone should not define a default unspecialised mass of builds. low life is a specialisation in es builds, so should ci be and probably is now, when it wasnt that was a problem. RTs very name came to be a tag for default non specialised strength melee, that is not good, that has been solved.

the power of non crit vs crit is a different topic, if thats what ur trying to talk about here and you are describing non crit as "RT", well thats problematic and thats why u cant buff RT because you will once again make it a mandatory node for all default non specialised strength melee. If non crit needs a buff it needs to not be attached to a keystone specialisation that makes every build travel to the same place on the tree.

RT is currently being used in minion and bleed builds. Its not like nobody touches it.

"

Snorkle_uk wrote:

so what were the lines you deleted after my quote there?

It was where you talked big about Saffel's like it's a BiS super-meta, which... It's not.

"

Snorkle_uk wrote:

were talking about non crit builds.

And NOT playing crit on melee, right now, is to intentionally gimp yourself and say "Yeah, I don't want to be ever viable in red maps."

"

Snorkle_uk wrote:

just like some marauders using a 2h weapon with 5% base crit are not going to be able to get much out of crit with axes or maces, so RT is still a perfectly viable choice for them.

Your entire logic here is "Well, it doesn't make much of a difference for someone that's ALREADY fallen for one noob trap, so why not leave all the other noob traps in?"

If you're using a melee weapon for attacks that has only 5% crit on it, you are in one of ONLY two categories:

• A Slayer taking the "Overwhelm" node that over-rides the crit on your weapon as 7.5%.
  
• Either making a failed crit build, or not building crit at all; in either case, not a viable build.

"

Snorkle_uk wrote:

im saying the general feeling was that it was a mandatory node to take for anyone making an attack build that wasnt specialising into crit. People, even in this thread, talk about crit and rt. they say "rt builds cant keep up with crit"... ok, well non rt + non crit phys melee builds are in exactly the same position as rt phys melee, they invest EVEN MORE in order to exist as a non crit build than rt users do and they have roughly the same damage.

but its taken as a given, theres crit, and then theres rt, thats how the community has talked about melee builds for close to 7 years now. if you are not crit then you are rt, we can sum up non crit as 'rt' because its been seen as such a mandatory node if you are not crit that its name can be used to describe all non crit.

You are also 100% opting to ignore the real problem here with some whataboutism. The fact is... A non-crit attack build just isn't viable.

What you're basically here is "It's not fair that in the past, it was an important decision as one of a clearly-defined set of ways to build." This is willfully ignoring that no, not every one of the trillions of trillions of possible combinations of picks is going to be viable. It never should be in such a wide-form system, because a lot of the combinations are just plain stupid. (e.g, no one, including you, is whining that CI+BM isn't viable, and that's a combination that you flat-out cannot use)

"

Snorkle_uk wrote:

its not a tangent, its extremely relevent to why accuracy was buffed to become a valid alternative to RT as it always should have been.

You might live in a separate reality, but in THIS reality, that did no such thing to "make non-crit, non-RT viable."

All it did was make crit the ONLY viable option, because it's not pretty trivial for pretty much every melee build to go crit.

"

Snorkle_uk wrote:

no it clearly does serve a purpose, many builds dont invest in crit and for some of those builds using rt rather than investing in accuracy is a valid, smart choice. its also a valid choice to be not crit AND not take rt with some of those builds, which always should have been a valid choice and yet really wasnt a lot of the time.

Your argument that, somehow, there should be a "third way" compromise between "taking one node to never miss" and "investing to have crit" should be viable... That is, the option to "still invest and still never really crit." It's literally the worst of both worlds.

"

Snorkle_uk wrote:

thats exactly how keystones were designed, how most operate and have always operated.

Well, given that ~80% (10,502/13,220) of characters in Metamorph are using at least one keystone, (and of the other 2,718, 2/3 are SUMMONERS, with 64% being Necromancers!) AND GGG has repeatedly noted that they're pleased with the revised/new states of many keystones (including with tons of players taking them) you'll have to provide some sort of evidence for this claim.

"

Snorkle_uk wrote:

low life is a niche, golemancers and rf are extremely niche. acro being mandatory for life evasion bow builds is not good, thats another example of a node that is probably too ubiquitous, as was ondars that rightly got nerfed into a niche were keystones belong, just like iron reflexes did.

Yes, "niche." Totally, with, y'know, 18% of Metamorph running PA. You're literally arguing that every single ascendancy is niche, given Necros aren't that much higher (28%) and everyone else is less used. In fact, there are about double the number of low-life builds on Metamorph there are compared to all forms of ranger combined.

"

Snorkle_uk wrote:

they stop defining ur build if they are not a niche, they stop being you specialisation and start becoming ur generalisation which stops them giving you a focused identity.

Specialization =/= "unique snowflake no one else takes."

"

Snorkle_uk wrote:

RT is still a node that makes sense and will be used on more builds in practice than unwavering, iron grip, arrow dancing, iron reflexes, blood magic, avatar of fire, crimson dance, basically any keystone in that area of the tree and many beyond. its still in the upper half of keystones in order of relevance, usefulness.

No, it's not. It has a very, very specific use for builds that want to abuse a mechanic that was meant to be just for melee fighters, such as Fortify, (on self) or maybe apply the Smite buff to allies.

For everyone else, taking it is a "Yeah, I'm making a build that won't be viable for high-end content, because I'm content not actually playing more than a tiny part of the game."

"

Snorkle_uk wrote:

crit vs non crit is an area that obviously needs balance, the fact that has been worded as crit vs rt for so long is an abomination and was rightly changed. crit should be a specialisation, not being crit on strength melee builds is just the default, crit is an int/dex thing, a keystone should not define a default unspecialised mass of builds. low life is a specialisation in es builds, so should ci be and probably is now, when it wasnt that was a problem. RTs very name came to be a tag for default non specialised strength melee, that is not good, that has been solved.

Again, this is you making up this weird narrative that "well, it should be equally viable to spend all the investment into accuracy crit has to, and still wind up equally viable to the no-investment RT," in spite of the simplest of logic indicating that such is complete bonkers.

You've utterly failed to make any sort of convincing argument for why it should be viable to up and just throw a bunch of passive points away for zero gain beyond something that boils down to "noob traps should be good!" And of course, by this point you've painted yourself into too much of a corner I know you won't say anything different; as with above, you'll start claiming things entirely detached from the reality of the game, (such as calling the next-most-used keystone after goddamn Phase Acrobatics "niche") because your arguments rely entirely upon reality being something vastly different from what it is.