Counter attack gems are useless

Wonder why there were so many Max Block Gladiators in LHC last season then. :D

because block is great?

counterattack skill REQUIRES you to be hit (in a game where when stars align ANY character can die in 1-2 shots) to deal rather paltry damage to targets you should have killed long time ago

vs bosses.. how to proc counterattack skill vs shaper or uber atziri or elder? some self-hit-reflect-magic build? really?

these do some damage, can provide utility with CoH or whatever, but as a concept these are obsolete and do not fit 'modern' POE with 80 mobs on the screen all dying from sneeze

you CAN make CA skills work but seriously WHY? what is the 'this build does XYZ better' of these builds? there has to be a 'point' of using CA skills and right now it is 'free damage vs targets you dont care about anyway'

The only thing counterattacks are good for are special on-hit effects, like curse on hit, blind, culling, etc. Based on what others are saying in this thread it looks like they can kill mobs if you are Gladiator and use all your sockets, but are useless against bosses.

Maybe some gimmicky ignite setup would work, so a counter hits a boss once and they burn to death? Seems unlikely and way too expensive. Better off just clicking the mouse to use any other conventional skill.

One thing to consider is that not all active skills are meant to be primary skills. Skills like Frost Wall, Frost Bomb, Vigilant Strike (to name a few) are secondary skills or "active supports". Planning to kill the endgame bosses with CwDT or Counter Attack skills would require a VERY specific setup. So obviously people will be doing those battles with their primary skills.

Blocking is just one of those mechanics that is circumstantial. The Blocking mechanic would be pretty ignored or naked without those gems as options. So at least Blocking has that. And as you pointed out, the Counter Attack gems do good damage. Their base damage was even reduced (making them more dependent on weapon stats) in 3.7. So GGG has recently made these skills the way they want them.

Not every skill will be perfect for every boss battle. But I see your points for sure. I'm of the opinion, especially since GGG just tweaked the gems in 3.7, that these skills are a perfect fit for blocking builds and the blocking mechanic. I've come to find them very efficient in all endgame content. Adds are everywhere now with the changes GGG is making to boss battles.

Anyway, that's my 2 cents.

"

Marxone wrote:

Is there a way how to build self hitting character? To proc the counter attacks automatically, preferably on a range?

Only think comes to my mind is to running reflect maps and block the reflects intentionally. Does not help with bossing tho.

Maybe Hiltless counter attack build with something like Spectral Throw?

Hiltless doesn't count as being hit for the purposes of on-hit effects since it uses reflected damage. It does still count as taking hit damage for effects like CWDT though.

The ways to self hit and actually trigger when hit are:

Eye of Innocence amulet (100 fire damage taken on igniting enemy)
Heartbound loop ring (350 phys when minion dies, using 2x just combines into 1 700 damage hit per minion)
Scold's Bridle helmet (phys damage equal to 4x mana spent on spending mana)
Doedre's Elixir flask (hit self on flask use, 10% of max life as chaos damage, can Savage Hit self if negative chaos res)
Gluttony (100-200 phys when using movement skill)

Of those, Eye of Innocence is definitely the best at triggering self hits since igniting is easy at any range and can be done hundreds of times per second if you're really building for it (such as various OMGItsJousis builds). A Storm of Ice and Fire is probably the one with the most ignites per second, but is no longer viable due to how Vaal Molten Shell got reworked.

Heartbound Loop has been built around for autosummoner shenanigans such as at https://www.pathofexile.com/forum/view-thread/2239894 and also another build by OMGItsJousis at https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hulUDvxqSq8. The Necromancer and summon rework this patch (mainly summoning more than 1 skeleton at once) opens it up to Ascendant as well assuming you're using Spirit Offering to offset the self hit damage. If you've got some other sustain to offset it then any class can do it.

Scold's Bridle paired with fast skills like Cyclone or Tempest Shield can get a lot of hits in as well.

Doedre's Elixir would require stupid flask recharge to make work for self hit. It might be possible, but I have significant doubts about it. It is the easiest to trigger a self Savage Hit though, assuming your chaos res is low.

Gluttony requires using a movement skill, which is different from spending resources on it because only the starting "cast" of a channeled skill counts as using it until you stop channeling. Unless there's some sort of way to stop channeling immediately then use the skill again, the fastest actual use times for movement skills are Bodyswap, Chain Hook, and Flicker Strike. So you're unlikely to get the dozens of self hits per second EoI and HBL can do.

actually used both aoe counters in a 3L with life gain on hit on my blight character a few leagues ago.

felt good on a close range dot build against bigger crowds.
big crowd + dot build = few small hits before everthing is dead;
few small hits = solid trigger chance.



guess these days you could even use anc call and melee splash with the triggers and life gain and be pretty much immune against getting crowded?

guess triggers have some little use in niche cases,
but normally better level some enlighten or empower gems if you have open slots.



but anyway, why are we discussing this?
might as well argue that lightning warp is useless and
"make LW good for once in single target";
but whats the point?

if its useless then dont use it (?)