Frost bolt and projectile with innate auto-pierce mod

-Frost bolt auto-pierce. The skill is not OP itself HOWEVER, coupled with ice nova it is very broken.

The projectile will pierce your FW and then player just need to apply ice nova over it to 1 shot .

In this case nerfing FB is useless because it is simply an accessory to ice nova BUT with auto-pierce it is really hard to cover from that if you play melee.

In frost bolt+ice nova case, a pvp penalty should be applied to ice nova when used with frostbolt.



-any innate auto-pierce projectile skill is a problem imo. After debating I decided to retire my suggestion about what to do with them but Imo they provide a lot of cheese vs close combat builds needing to rush from A to B and can t even use frost wall to help avoiding the proj..


-Ball lightning also auto-pierce and got balls that "zap"players even if they cover on wall/cast frost wall. The skills got nerfed recently but I still think the "zap" part of the skill still hit too hard for it s QOL and because the projectile itself already auto-pierce. So Imo it still need a little nerf on the "zap" part of the skill if it is a possible thing to do.


-pierce support

Every skill linked to pierce support should get a pvp penalty like other support providing such QOL. If LMP-GMP got nerfed why not pierce support?

...

yes magma orb, ball lightning can bypass walls.

Then which skill cant bypass walls?
Fireball. Lightning Arrow.

You think it could be a stadard of balance?

At least for me, No.

Frostbolt/icenova is so slow, easily avoidable, i've played it to max on std

1) its slow and avoidable

2) does not provide massive coverage.

3) requires complete stand still to cast two-skills

This allows counter play.

"

lolozori wrote:

-All projectiles that have auto-pierce element are/were a problem in pvp.

I didn't know freezing pulse were a problem because of pierce instead of shotgun mechanism.

"

relithh wrote:

Frostbolt/icenova is so slow, easily avoidable, i've played it to max on std

1) its slow and avoidable

2) does not provide massive coverage.

3) requires complete stand still to cast two-skills

This allows counter play.

Look I am talking in a temp league pvp perspective here.

I know in std with 5k life ranged builds it is easy to cast a smoke mine and shoot in the frostball nova player direction to get him 1 shooted. However the nova AOE is hudge, well built it is full screen aoe.

Most of the time Frost bolt being accessory, Nova is the skill dealing damage on 6l not frostbolt who just need to be linked with multiple proj.

FW+nova in temp is a problem for melee build who need to engage and not run away with smoke mine and shoot.

The fact nova is the main skill there means if FB was not piercing the player could still warp toward it s prey and kill only with nova.

If it had damage reduction when linked to FB player would have 2 solution, either engage at full screen distance with nova or still use FB+nova but accept damage reduction.

"

aliac123 wrote:

...

yes magma orb, ball lightning can bypass walls.

Then which skill cant bypass walls?
Fireball. Lightning Arrow.

You think it could be a stadard of balance?

At least for me, No.

Not sure why you are complaining there.
If we talk about standard league, all of you have legacy shaper step boots so every projectile are piercing anyway. It would just mean replacing your favorite boot and use shaper s one instead. Nothing that is not already done with death door vs bleeding. It is opportunity cost.

Talking about AOE projectile skills, you know echo+wall can counter the aoe
from FB-LA as long as you get space to back up. Sure next shoot will be game over but at least you can avoid one cast. you can t avoid piercing full screen ice nova as a melee.

And I am not saying those skills should stay unchecked. This is just a talk about FB+ice nova-pierce, free to you to talk about aoe skills. Balance always start from A to B. I propose to start with A (piercing proj) and then we can talk to change B (LA AOE).

I don t know why "pierce support" don t get a pvp penalty either since other supports providing QOL and damage like trap support and LMP-GMP also got pvp penalty.

In temp league it will be better and healtier vs ranged . No reason for ranged to get free pierce + more damage at no cost and see their projectiles passing frost wall like knife in butter. Beside if you can t pierce the wall just swap to ROA or something like all of you do anyway. It just force you to use another skill in temp league. No big deal, and if you want to still use pierce then accept a pvp penalty on the support.

What im reading here it seems you want everything to have a penalty so your melee can do something?.

i am not clear on what the purpose of your post is, because end of the day there are melee builds atm using divine flesh and is doing very well, and that is even against standard min-maxed gear.

most temp league players are not invested into pvp anyway, or most of the time trying to do both.

there is no such thing of having the best of both worlds here.

Anyway try out divine flesh , its crazy op with molten shell and try lacerate too, it has insane range.

on the other hand, ice nova does multiple hits guided by frostbolt, and the pulses travel as fast as frost bolt does ( slow ), You can just be moderately f ast and move out of incoming nova pulses. This however, wont work if you're diving head on.

I would like to think you're fully pvp specced, with divine flesh, and not pve-ing , because the frostbolt/nova guy surely isn't.

4-5k hp without any mitigation will definitely get you killed. But if that is the case than you are most likely asking to be.

-- I have a friend that is running that on league DiaMN, and he felt the limitations of icenova/frostbolt too.

I personally feel that this can be a problem for some melee type builds, but lots of counterplays are def on the table against icenova/fb.

I would suggest switching around to fight it.

What i meant for 'standard of balance' is 'criteria of balance', not a standatd league.

Reason I am complaining

See what you wrote.
" All projectiles that have auto-pierce element are/were a problem in pvp. "

" I suggest that projectiles with auto-pierce get a minor pvp penalty in general. "

" As a rule If GGG is creating new projectile skills I advice them to apply pvp penalty on them if they have auto-pierce abilities. "

You just say nerf all auto-pierce projectiles.

In new pvp layout, there are bunch of walls. So skill interacting with walls can do aoe overlap very very easily.

How about freezing pulse or spectral throw? Auto-pierce projectiles have no interaction with walls. So they just rekt by walls itself. But you want nerf all instead of some broken skill.

"

aliac123 wrote:

You just say nerf all auto-pierce projectiles.

In new pvp layout, there are bunch of walls. So skill interacting with walls can do aoe overlap very very easily.

- Multiple walls are bullshit, it favor turtling and it used to favor skills like EA or ground skills. I don t like all those walls either but this is not the main focus of my post.

-Spectral throw can hit two time + for no penalty, it auto pierce. Imo the skill could get a pvp balance in a perfect world but sure there are so much more broken stuff that it is not necessary atm. Even Lapiz agreed ST could need a pvp nerf in a perfect world.

I understand you don t like my idea of preventive nerf to all projectiles that have innate piercing ability.

How I see it, pierce have big tactical advantage and bypass frostwall but let s separate AOE skills and pierce. I am not saying aoe skills should stay untouched I am pointing finger just at pierce in general in this post.

And my idea to get a minimal pvp penalty to auto-pierce skills as preventive mesure make sense to me considering the fact each time something borderline broken is nerfed people jump on the next easy ride.

each time a pvp build get nerfed BAM the next "one shot" build is designed to bypass the restriction. Players in poe need to design stuff around the broken. This is why EHLD failed and this is why preventive nerf to mechanics that can be abused now or in futur is imo a better idea.

But that is a suggestion, just nerfing the pierce support and the interaction between FB and nova would be enough for the next 2 league for sure, until we all just jump on the next " 1 shot skill" that can auto-pierce, have 3 screen aoe , bypass PVP scaling and can be played in Ehld. So why not taking preventive mesures and nerf innate auto-pierce proj on the get go?

But fair enough, I don t change my opinion on it but will retire the suggestion from the post as maybe it would be then easier to just nerf ice-nova+bolt and pierce support.

All projectile skill should be nerf like bl/fb/magma with -25% reduced damage to players.

end of story.

Take a look at what happened to kinetic blast. This is by far the best example of a skill called out, but instead of getting a proper balance, it got killed.

There are players out there that mirrored his pvp jewels 11 times to min-max for PvP, and he should be killing you :(

From reading your posts, i can see that you really wanted frostbolt icenova nerfed.

I played it , fought it, no longer playing it. I had virtually no problems dealing with that.

It could also be the only skill your build is weak against ( no idea what you're playing), and that is what pvp is all about in the first place, Counter play, counter builds.

I strongly suggest to get really invested into pvp before making decisions on what is best for them.

Today, a lot of players are calling out nerfs from a very biased stand-point.

For my case, if i ever were to call something out, i would build it and play it with its max-potential, to determine if a skill is broken or not.

Truth be told, gear plays a bigger part than the skill itself, someone could kill you with any projectile or melee skill if he out-gears you severely. Have to keep that into consideration.

Skills that warranted nerfs are skills that requires low-investments that anyone could play i.E BL but obviously it can also be scaled to extreme high levels of gear.