Favorite/most memorable villain?

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pneuma wrote:

This is a really tough question from "all-time villains". Don't even know where to begin, honestly.

Of recent note, Tywin Lannister was acted so phenomenally that GoT has really felt hollow to me since he's been gone. Granted none of the characters are textbook villains in GoT, but planning the Red Wedding alone has to put him under that label.

When you said "planning", it made me think "plot", and soil, and villain, in the old sense. Also, Tywin was never afraid to get his hands dirty, and there is the manner of his passing, soil.

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villain (n.)
c. 1300 (late 12c. as a surname), "base or low-born rustic," from Anglo-French and Old French vilain "peasant, farmer, commoner, churl, yokel" (12c.), from Medieval Latin villanus "farmhand," from Latin villa "country house, farm" (from PIE root *weik- (1) "clan"). Meaning "character in a novel, play, etc. whose evil motives or actions help drive the plot" is from 1822.

The most important phases of the sense development of this word may be summed up as follows: 'inhabitant of a farm; peasant; churl, boor; clown; miser; knave, scoundrel.' Today both Fr. vilain and Eng. villain are used only in a pejorative sense. [Klein]

I suppose there was a word for the bad guys before 1822 that still meant someone whose evil motives or actions help drive the plot that isn't connected directly to turning sod over and dirty deeds. My guess would be Antagonist. The literalness of the word villain and the disdain for those who work with the earth is interesting. Tied to the Industrial revolution, possibly, and the rise of dirty, diseased cities. The more the filth became apparent, the bigger the disdain.

operating theatre, 1822. The miasma theory of disease spread was current at the time.

The Old Coburg Theatre, 1822
Nary a turd-clodded boot to be sniffed in that crowd.

We have heroes and protagonists with clean hands and shining brows, and then we have villains who die on the shitter, in Tywin's case.

Without the dirt, and the grunt work, driving the plot along, where would we be?

All very much idle musings. Perhaps someone has written an excrement ... yeah that didn't really work, excellent, focused and concise essay about the matter, though I couldn't find one, so, tough shit.

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Anonymous1749704 wrote:

I saw Joker and Lecter coming at least. IMO Joker is too messy of a character; almost everything is interchangeable between different variations. Joker originally didn't even have a backstory, and the legendary vat of acid is a later addition.

Yeah I tossed Joker in because he's the one comic book villain that's actually a little bit personal, and might bleed if you cut him, but you're onto something. Maybe if Joker branched out a bit from Batman he could really develop as a force to be reckoned with.

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erdelyii wrote:

Yeah I tossed Joker in because he's the one comic book villain that's actually a little bit personal, and might bleed if you cut him, but you're onto something. Maybe if Joker branched out a bit from Batman he could really develop as a force to be reckoned with.

Have you ever seen "Batman : The Killing Joke"? (Wiki link) It's probably one of the best stories related to the Joker IMHO. If you haven't seen it I highly recommend you do so. Just make sure you watch it when the kiddies aren't around, It's rated R. :)

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ThunderBiome wrote:

Honorable Mention:



Also

Ha!

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Shovelcut wrote:

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erdelyii wrote:

Yeah I tossed Joker in because he's the one comic book villain that's actually a little bit personal, and might bleed if you cut him, but you're onto something. Maybe if Joker branched out a bit from Batman he could really develop as a force to be reckoned with.

Have you ever seen "Batman : The Killing Joke"? (Wiki link) It's probably one of the best stories related to the Joker IMHO. If you haven't seen it I highly recommend you do so. Just make sure you watch it when the kiddies aren't around, It's rated R. :)

Oh, memory is weird, isn't it? I have seen that poster, and remember when it came out. Dim memory of some special screening, I never saw it though. Superheroes ... ah. I catch the odd superhero movie and some are pretty good (some are shit) but it's like I have a 1.5 a year quota. So, maybe next year as I have seen oh wait it's 2019. The kiddies? I guess you're being general as mine are old enough to self-censor. Amazing for 10 year olds, huh? (I kid, but man. Some mishaps along the way. They never let me forget me saying I heard Bible Black was a good show when they were tender younguns, so they watched an episode. I had NO idea, someone told me it was ... I guess they meant I should watch it). Didn't put 'em off anime / manga in the slightest though, lol.

I had a read of the Wiki:

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Batman subdues Joker, tells him that Gordon has remained sane, and concludes that Joker is alone in his madness. He then attempts to reach out to him, offering rehabilitation. Joker declines, saying it is too late. He then says that the situation reminds him of a joke about two patients in an insane asylum who try to escape by leaping over to the adjoining building. The first patient makes it across, but the second patient is too afraid. The first patient says, "Hey, I got this flashlight with me. I'll shine it across the gap between the buildings and you can walk across the beam and join me." But the second patient says, "What do you think I am, crazy? You'll just turn it off when I'm halfway across!" Batman and Joker then have a good laugh at the joke as the police arrive. The Joker's laugh trails off while Batman continues to laugh, leaving the ending as ambiguous as the comic.

That's a cute joke XD

This guy.

It's my opinion that Asuka was the main character of that series the entire time while we rode alongside Shinji so we could experience his origin story as the villain, walking along in the footsteps of his father.

But Shinji wasn't evil. But he was still the villain because his heart/spirit was too slow to evolve which was basically the same as what happened with Gendo. It's so powerful because most of us would have freaked out too the exact same way he did in those final moments. And once stripped of our conscious decision making, a lot of us would have done the exact same thing he did.

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BearCares wrote:

This guy.

It's my opinion that Asuka was the main character of that series the entire time while we rode alongside Shinji so we could experience his origin story as the villain, walking along in the footsteps of his father.

That's a weird opinion on Asuka. Obviously Shinji is the main character, even if he's on the Bad Guy Team. We're exposed to the Good Guy Team for the entire anime, they even are called Angels, it's just that we don't actually get to know one of them until the very end. But that doesn't make them main characters; a story can be written from the perspective of the villain.

By the way, I was having trouble figuring out who my favorite villain is, and writing that really helped me out. Although I would toss an honorable mention to Francis Urquhart, I'd have to give it to this guy:

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鬼殺し wrote:

How about this savage motherfucker?

One of the best little monologues from Pacino's career

Who are you carrying all those bricks for anyway? God? Is that it? God? Well, I tell ya, let me give you a little inside information about God. God likes to watch. He’s a prankster. Think about it. He gives man instincts. He gives you this extraordinary gift and then what does He do? I swear, for His own amusement, His own private cosmic gag reel, He sets the rules in opposition. It’s the goof of all time. Look, but don’t touch. Touch, but don’t taste. Taste, don’t swallow. And while you’re jumpin’ from one foot to the next, what is He doin’? He’s laughin’ His sick, fuckin’ ass off. He’s a tight-ass. He’s a sadist. He’s an absentee landlord. Worship that? Never! … Why not? I’m here on the ground with my nose in it since the whole thing began! I’ve nurtured every sensation man has been inspired to have! I cared about what he wanted and I never judged him. Why? Because I never rejected him, in spite of all his imperfections! I’m a fan of man! I’m a humanist. Maybe the last humanist. Who, in their right mind, Kevin, could possibly deny the 20th century was entirely mine? All of it, Kevin! All of it! Mine! I’m peaking, Kevin. It’s my time now. It’s our time.

Haven't seen that film. I like the quote. He embraces the down to earth dirty villany of his experience: I’m here on the ground with my nose in it since the whole thing began!

Seeing him reminds me of another villainous Al,Al Swearingen.

Deadwood reamins, sadly, unfinished, a ghost town of itself.

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Too many surface-level weeb answers here imo

Taking your word for that, as I don't watch much anime. If it's set in a high school, probably not gonna watch it, which rules out a lot. There are exceptions! Also, tend to commit to movies and short films. So, perhaps someone will come in with some in-depth villain discussion, for now how about one most of us will have seen -

Nature and humanity's relationship to it /ourselves as we are part of nature/ is a subject close to my heart.

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“These days, there are angry ghosts all around us. Dead from wars, sickness, starvation, and nobody cares. So - you say you're under a curse. So what, so's the whole damn world.” - Bou Jiko

Mononoke-hime

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Lady Eboshi wrote:

Without that ancient god, the animals here would be nothing but dumb beasts once again. Once the forest has been cleared and the wolves wiped out, this desolate place will become the richest land in the world... and Princess Mononoke will become human.

The lack of a real villain, just characters with reasons to go either way, showing that good and bad, peace and destruction, hate and love are mixed in all of us asking how do we achieve balance when so much is at stake and we feel our individual motives are so pressing, or are swept up by others' poisons is what makes it so powerful.

Most films don't need to do this, they work in simpler frames, and that's fine.

Kodama

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erdelyii wrote:

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鬼殺し wrote:

Too many surface-level weeb answers here imo

Taking your word for that, as I don't watch much anime.

I thought for a moment of just giving my nod to Urquhart, as he's legitimately awesome and I could easily anticipate some anti-weeb negativity coming, especially if I added to the pile. But fuck that self-censoring poseur bullshit. I yam what I yam.

whatever Charan but there is no meaning behind batman dude's clasped hands. Gendo wears gloves in order to veil his own heart from the deeds that he is doing. That one moment in the entire series where Gendo was somewhat likeable is something that he is so determined to deny that he is willing to wear mickey mouse gloves in order to do so. Unlike batman guy who basically looks like a broad jawed girl whose never had a difficult moment in his entire life.

One man survived an apocalypse, the other survived probably millions of manicures.

aaahhHHHH!!

I was jsut gonna burn charan but i have to be serious for one moment. The more I think about Gendo as an adult the more understandble he becomes. I start to understand every single thing that he did in that series

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鬼殺し wrote:

I think it's a wonderful movie. There was a spat of pre-millenial he-Walks-Among-Us movies from that era, and The Devil's Advocate is probably the least compromising. End of Days was a little hammier but Gabriel Byrne has more than enough slickness to pull it off.

Can imagine. Byrne is a pretty good actor.

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Charan wrote:

As for kodama, there's a certain dev who is creeped out by them and I love to point out the critters in act 4 are straight-up kodama rip-offs, so a little teeth-chattering and head-tilting can go a long way when used against the right person.

Ha, he's a nut to find them creepy, and by extension the inua totems. I have the pet, too, because soon as I saw the inua totems it was clear exactly what they looked like.

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Charan wrote:

Lady Eboshi was the villain of Mononokehime and y'aint gonna convince me otherwise.

Nope, she wasn't. She did villanous things, she did good things even if the motives were not altruistic (with the lepers), and most importantly - she did not meet a villain's end. Having an identified villain throws the whole thing out of the perspective it's taking.

and you won't convince me otherwise

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Charan wrote:

Al S is more anti-hero than villain, so I left him where he belongs: waiting for that movie.

I think you might just be glamoured by how goddamn Shakesperian and cool he is, and all the exquisitely detailed and frank bodily functions he experiences, and how. Guy's more villain than anti-hero. But ... you make me think about it. Possibly if the series was finished, or, as you say, a movie.

Shelved, then.

Anime fans will pick up on the rest. The Xanatos scheme is interesting. But this -

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Charan wrote:

And I'd like to note he was rocking the clasped hands 'I own this fucking game' pose years before this sad bastard, who is only doing it so Gainax didn't have to animate his mouth:

Haha the entire time, he was like that?

ed:

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ScrotieMcB wrote:

I thought for a moment of just giving my nod to Urquhart, as he's legitimately awesome and I could easily anticipate some anti-weeb negativity coming, especially if I added to the pile. But fuck that self-censoring poseur bullshit. I yam what I yam.

the whole weeb thing is a beat-up and can be accurate and funny but -- . I mean, some people are really embarrasing with their fandom and identify as being weebs but it shouldn't matter what people like, if you like it you like it.

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鬼殺し wrote:

You should check out the very young etymology of the word, erd. It's hilarious. Western otaku literally took it back from being a censorship measure. I love it as a convenient, inoffensive term. There are worse for the specific circles of weebery in which I run...

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From late 2003 and onwards, usage of Wapanese became alarmingly visible on 4chan, often leading to unpleasant exchanges between anime/manga fans and those who were far less interested in their subcultures.

At the peak of its abuse in mid-2005, 4chan moderators devised a creative intervention using the word-filter, replacing every instance of Wapanese with "Weeaboo," which was a fictitious term originally coined by Nicholas Gurewitch in his Perry Bible Fellowship comic strip

Figures, and yes, that made me laugh. Good old 4chan.

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Charan wrote:

As for the Gendo hand pose: not the whole time but enough that if you know how anime is made, you can see a mile what Gainax were doing. I know what I know. Only one person on this entire forum spent a year researching Evangelion and putting together 35k words on it...I have seen the series dozens of times. Every cost cutting shortcut, every moment of sakuga, every tiny instance of religious symbolism, I lived that shit. You don't do a recap episode or go through a full blown animation breakdown in your last two eps if you aren't barely getting by. Animation director Kazuya Tsurumaki not only admitted they were going broke by episode 16, he liked that the shift from action to psychology gave them more means to cut corners. Eva was a miracle that divided the timeline of anime in half. But like a lot of miracles, it was a disaster first.

I'm not saying there isn't meaning to the Gendo pose or the gloves, but the way they framed it was what is called power saving in the business.

Aw, all the time would have been great. What do you mean divided the timeline of anime in half? You mentioned tablet - is there a "the" missing or am I missing something?

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Charan wrote:

So, you think you can burn me...on Eva? Holy shit are you ever out of your depth there. Believe what you want. Take from the show what you will. But don't start a war that to your enemy would be a light skirmish. Especially when the best thing Eva ever taught me was don't read into it so much that you forget it was, on top of anything else, a man's attempt at reconciling his depression through very desperate measures.

Anyway, enough of that. Not exactly proud that I spent that long only to conclude any hefty analysis of Eva is to impose far too much on Eva. Still, sometimes you have to take the long way around as expeditiously as possible.

I kind of hope they have a crack at it.

---

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Charan wrote:

But related: my reading of mononoke was pretty simple. Nature good, industry bad. In that light Eboshi is villainous. But thats robbing Ghibli's best movie a lot of its nuance. Still, if there is a villain, its her. If.

I'm happy with if, and when you next watch it, go full nuance mode and see what you decide.

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Charan wrote:

Al S cared for his own. He had a code. In many other settings, he would have been a full villain. In deadwood, he was almost a fixed point.

Anyway, on tablet so please forgive the disjointed, linkless response.

Deadwood was a frontier town with limited laws and Al S took full advantage of that. In a way he was a form of order and a fixed point, true. Villains often care for their own - so long as it suits their agenda, and sometimes when it doesn't because few are wicked islands of depravity - and have a code - I'd say a code is essential to a great villain, and easy to have, more so than a hero who figures it out as they go.

Thinking on the West:

Judge Holden, Blood Meridian, Cormac McCarthy.

Often called “the Judge”, a totally bald, toweringly gigantic, supernaturally strong, demonically violent, and profoundly learned deputy in Glanton’s gang, second in command to none but Glanton himself. The Judge fell in with the scalp hunters after he helped them to massacre their Apache pursuers with gunpowder he manufactured utilizing little more than bat guano and human urine. He is a studious anthropologist and naturalist, a polyglot, an eloquent lecturer in fields as diverse as biological evolution and jurisprudence. He is an expert fiddler and nimble dancer. He is also a liar, a sadistic killer, and very possibly a rapist and murderer of young children. The Judge has pledged himself absolutely to the god of war, going so far as to claim that war itself is God. Fatally severe on those who break partisanship with the god of war, the Judge finds his wayward yet antagonistic spiritual son in the kid, whom he accuses of poisoning the gang’s enterprise by reserving a measure of mercy in his heart...he claims that he will never die.


Decidedly dark and terrible, but not exactly a villain, given that the protagonist is no saint, far from it, and not an anti-hero either.

And then of course, Randall Flagg, still out West.

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He looks like anybody you see on the street. But when he grins, birds fall dead off telephone lines. When he looks at you a certain way, your prostate goes bad and your urine burns. The grass yellows up and dies where he spits. He’s always outside. He came out of time. He doesn’t know himself.”
― Stephen King, The Stand

King leads to Pennywise, who scares me.

Horror villains, we've skipped them for the wordier and more complex so far but there are some good ones in there out of nightmare.

ed:

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Charan wrote:

Pushing things forward, a literary villain of great prowess. Kellhus Anasurimbor of The Prince of Nothing. The entire series is full of scheming power players but he moves in much larger, deeper circles. If you're a card carrying Nietzschean he is arguably heroic for saving the world from itself as a textbook ubermensch tyrant, but to anyone actually living in his world the man is a complete monster precisely because he is as a god among them unafraid to use his awesome power to BE their god. There is something distinctly Satanic about that. See the aforementioned quote from TDA.

Indeed, we were a bit stuck on Al and Mononke.

The Prince of Nothing, haven't read that. Looks good.

Ah, reading. I read a lot online, articles, pieces, but books (/device) ... really think it's time to start using the big old chair in the front room the opposite end of the place to the PC and making it a habit again.