Crossbows - PoE - detailed Concept

Short prologue:

What brought me here and doesnt let me sleep at night is the love for bow characters, every new league a new bow character since the Awakening.
All the fun stuf like lightning arrow, frostwall or doomfletch memes come and go. But ever since the introduction and nerf of Doomfletch I found the "Bow meta" a bit stale and boring to say the least..(nobody mentioned you Windripper, now back to your seat.)

Every single League Start I realize there are lots and plenty of melee weapons but barely any ranged weapons execept Bows (and wands with lots and lots of caster mods) to pick up.


So let me introduce you to my Crossbow Concept!

What could be the main concerns / issues with crossbows?
=> The smiliarity to bows and players potentially disliking slower builds/attack speeds


I can wipe out those thoughts all at once with a whole new idea of mechanic/playstyle:
The Quick-Shot Magazine + Reload Time!

The idea:
Similar to traps you get a stack or a magazine like real crossbows with a set amount of Bolts which fire fast! (faster than bows to be precise) but after 3-4-5 or more shots (depending on possible affixes/unique affixes in general) the crossbow has to reload.
The goal of this is to release fast bursts to clear packs or deal quick but potent pokes against bosses followed by clever repositioning.


This paves a whole new archetype of weaponizing/gearing/scaling on the tree with possible stats like "has 1 more bolt in your magazine" "has a faster reload speed" or "fires bolts faster (in sucession)" for example.


Ever wonder why theres Spell Echo, Multistrike but no MULTI-SHOT ?

How About other Key Defining Bow Skill-gems?

I'd say the average Bow skill could be used on crossbows aswell, the more "generic" ones like

Ice-Shot
Lightning-Arrow
Burning-Arrow
Split-Arrow
etc.


Key defining Bow Skills would stay with Bows, like Tornadoshot, Barrage.


Completely new Skills could be

Blast-Shot: fires forth a fiery bolt of Flame/Lava that errupts shortly after, 50% fire conversion
Tags: Aoe, Projectile, Fire, Attack, Crossbow

or

Haunting Bolts: fires (2-4) bolts which hunt the nearest targets and chain+1 to the next (chaos or cold themed) 50% conversion
Tags: Aoe, Projectile, Cold/Chaos , Attack, Crossbow, Chaining

or

Flashing Shot: fires a projectile which explodes on impact and makes all targets hit vulnerable to lightning damage (stacks up to 2-4 times) 5% increased lightning damage taken per stack(lasts 2 seconds), 50% Lightning Conversion
Tags: Aoe, Projectile, Lightning, Attack, Crossbow, Duration


new possible support gems:

Multi Shot: - deals 50-30% less damage "70% more attack speed, attacks repeat an additional time"
Urgency: 10-30% less reload time
Spring-loaded: increase magazine size by 1-4 botls
Vendetta: special conversions (each bolt fires as a different element and converts 60-100% of physical to elemental damage) could be a skill aswell, aka wildstrike/elemental hit

and so on and so forth.


This makes the whole theme more attractive and especially more versatile in scaling if you want faster reloads for easier packs, or heavy hitters for late content, skills made for single or multi target.

Crossbow Basetypes could be as follows:
ilvl 12 light Crossbow - implicit - reload time reduced by 10%
ilvl 30 medium Crossbow - implicit -magazine size +1
ilvl 58 heavy Crossbow - implicit -magazine size +2
ilvl 64+ any form of special like Makareth Bow


Thats it from me, as I couldn't stop myself from thinking about this while preparing for Betrayal I hope that I can fetch some sleep now.
See ya ;)

Crossbows requires new character actions and new skill tree adaptions.
Its not happening stop asking for such stupid weapon.

"

MrsDeath_ wrote:

Crossbows requires new character actions and new skill tree adaptions.
Its not happening stop asking for such stupid weapon.

Not necessarily; just make them essentially new bow types that use the same skills and passives as bows but have different animations, stats, and implicits. Animations would be the heaviest lift, as well as the question of whether they get separate bolt quivers.

As a general suggestion, it’s not too out there. But its not exactly a high priority for GGG either.

"

demon9675 wrote:

"

MrsDeath_ wrote:

Crossbows requires new character actions and new skill tree adaptions.
Its not happening stop asking for such stupid weapon.

Not necessarily; just make them essentially new bow types that use the same skills and passives as bows but have different animations, stats, and implicits. Animations would be the heaviest lift, as well as the question of whether they get separate bolt quivers.

As a general suggestion, it’s not too out there. But its not exactly a high priority for GGG either.

I doubt it would happen in any time soon but as u said animations can be hard and costy to create. My issue with xbows would be lack of data and power difference it would have compared to already existing weapons. Ggg already has a lot to consider when it comes to weapon power difference. Adding another one would increase the problems instead of satisfying a small crowd.

Well it really boils down to the work needed to add them.

And that is a LOT of work.

It will include multiple 2d and 3d models and art being created for the base type, more than likely including unique versions.
It will all need to be rigged and animated with all the characters
It WILL need specific passive wheels (you could combine some bow ones BUT that isn't how they will do it)
It will need a full on balance pass, from stat weighting, where they want to fit it on the tree, the mods the item can roll, EVERYTHING
It will also have to be mechanically different from bows (otherwise why even waste money adding them)
It will also need to work with MTX (where to afix the glow, clipping etc)

I don't see how even the premise is different from Barrage in the first place, and it's not exclusive to bows either. Barrage can be used with wands.

Barrage fires a lot of projectiles and takes time to charge up. That seems roughly equivalent to reloading.

Tornado Shot admittedly makes slightly more sense because the heavier crossbow bolts would be less affected by wind.

I believe multi-shot doesn't exist because projectiles have so many utility support gems that increase the number of targets hit already.

I don't mind crossbows as another bow base type like thrusting one handed swords, but I see no reason why they should have a completely new weapon type. Apart from the animations, all a bow base type would require would be one or two wheels to better support bows in the Duelist area of the skill tree, assuming they have a str/dex requirement.

"

lagwin1980 wrote:

Well it really boils down to the work needed to add them.

And that is a LOT of work.

It will include multiple 2d and 3d models and art being created for the base type, more than likely including unique versions.
It will all need to be rigged and animated with all the characters
It WILL need specific passive wheels (you could combine some bow ones BUT that isn't how they will do it)
It will need a full on balance pass, from stat weighting, where they want to fit it on the tree, the mods the item can roll, EVERYTHING
It will also have to be mechanically different from bows (otherwise why even waste money adding them)
It will also need to work with MTX (where to afix the glow, clipping etc)

As if 3d modeling a static object was hard.

Only needs 1 animation of the character standing still, aiming and releasing the arrow.
Another one for Blink Arrow all it needs is for the character to aim upwards.

They are mechanically different in having faster projectile speed more damage but slower attack speed because of cocking.

Some of them could have a magazines that needs to be refilled after a few shots and some single shot.

As for passives some of the existing Bow nodes can be Hybrid Bow/Crossbow and then you need a big and small passive Wheel.

I think Tornado Shot and Split Arrow should be Bow exclusives

Hi guys,

"

Crossbows requires new character actions and new skill tree adaptions.
Its not happening stop asking for such stupid weapon.

please keep it constructive, I doubt you wouldn't want to play a new exciting skill for your prefered class which feels completely new and opens a whole new level of poe to you, so dont try to take those dreams from others :)

"

just make them essentially new bow types that use the same skills and passives as bows but have different animations, stats, and implicits. Animations would be the heaviest lift, as well as the question of whether they get separate bolt quivers.

As a general suggestion, it’s not too out there. But its not exactly a high priority for GGG either.

not all the same skills and even the animations wouldnt need to be hardcore, imagine how cheap "split arrow" started out and a small revamp on colouring and size of the projectiles make all the difference.

as for the animation, yes it would be a whole new thing to do but sooner or later ggg will improve the game, think about what betrayal is bringing us and look back 2 years ago.. I think adding new weaponary isnt that far fetched at all, concidering the templates and ideas that already exist from other games that you get inspired by and fit it just right for poe :)

"

Well it really boils down to the work needed to add them.

And that is a LOT of work.

It will include multiple 2d and 3d models and art being created for the base type, more than likely including unique versions.
It will all need to be rigged and animated with all the characters
It WILL need specific passive wheels (you could combine some bow ones BUT that isn't how they will do it)
It will need a full on balance pass, from stat weighting, where they want to fit it on the tree, the mods the item can roll, EVERYTHING
It will also have to be mechanically different from bows (otherwise why even waste money adding them)
It will also need to work with MTX (where to afix the glow, clipping etc)

yes, that would truly be the case, but again sooner or later new things will come I'm not asking for a crossbow tomorrow I'd be fine with it in 1-2 years from now when the game matures even further cause I will stick around for sure!

"

I don't see how even the premise is different from Barrage in the first place, and it's not exclusive to bows either. Barrage can be used with wands.

Barrage fires a lot of projectiles and takes time to charge up. That seems roughly equivalent to reloading.

if you dont see the premise then I'm truly sorry to not beeing able to make you understand, cause its like day and night if you could imagine it like I try to describe it.. yes its not exclusive thats my problem
my premise?

-we have no variety in ranged weaponary whatsoever -> put a generic aoe clear skill in and barrage for single target
-caster builds can play most skills they want with just gem swaps(which I don't like either but thats how the cooky crumbles
-when I see streamers like "DonTheCrown" taking down shaper with literally any skill without switching gear or respeccing and it doesnt matter how he builds it does that make for enjoyable content?

"

I don't mind crossbows as another bow base type like thrusting one handed swords, but I see no reason why they should have a completely new weapon type.

whats my conclusion?
dualwielding gets abused to the point where twohanders of all sorts are obsolete, bow and wand characters will have to use barrage 90% of the time as a second skill for single target.
now you tell me your premise on diversity when you have "wanders" that use only 2 skills aswell

PoE lives and dies by Variety and Diversity thats what makes us love it.. meanwhile thats also exactly what kills Diablo right now. Always the same bullshit with different numbers :)

cheers guys!

You might be interested in an interview Chris did with Zizaran at https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HKgvHRzt3ao

When asked about crossbows, Chris said this:

"Chris: I think crossbows would be cool, but they suffer the same problem as other new weapon types where -- So okay, let's talk about crossbows for a second.

Crossbows are very powerful bows that you load with both hands, and they are significantly more punchy than a bow because there's a much more powerful mechanism. So, they're slower, and they do more damage. If we added that in the game, a two-hand bow that's slow that deals more damage with a larger strength component, is that really helping anyone? It would look cool for someone to fire a crossbow. But people don't like slower stuff. Whenever we add weapons that are slower, we get a really bad backlash. So, the only way to do crossbows in a way that doesn't generate people hating them is for them to have pistol crossbows that automatically reload and they're basically guns and you dual wield them and that kind of stuff. But that's not really what Wraeclast is about. Running around with pseudo-guns in your hands? It's the kind of thing where a slow crossbow could make sense, but the community wouldn't enjoy it as much.

This is based entirely on my opinion. I haven't talked with the guys who work in items. They probably have their own plans. But I feel that if we found a way of coping with the fact that crossbows implicitly are different from bows in a way that makes them interesting then we're more likely to add them."

You've somewhat addressed the slowness with the magazine idea, but Chris mentioning pseudo-guns means it's on his radar and probably something he's discounted as not fitting in with the game's theme. Also, keep in mind if there are magazines then the ideal case for most players is they don't even notice the reload time at all because they must always be able to shoot or otherwise use whatever ability. In theory it'd be interesting to have the reload but as first-person shooters have taught us if the game is fast-paced (and PoE definitely is at high levels) then having to stop and reload absolutely murders the game's pacing and feel.

Have you looked at how trap design has progressed? At first it was cooldown-based but as the game got faster GGG decided pretty much all baseline damage traps worked out better simply not having a cooldown or charges. That change was made in 3.3, to roaring acclaim. Basically, the only way to introduce any sort of cooldown is if it's a monstrously powerful skill like certain traps or Vaal skills so there's no way it could be a fundamental part of a weapon.

The character animations argument against the idea doesn't hold up as much since we know for a fact GGG is working on new character models, animations, and rigging. They presumably need to redo stuff for all weapons and armor anyway so adding in crossbows wouldn't be too much extra work. And they might already have it done since there are guys in Act 5 who use crossbows and they've said the new rigging and the like has been in place for many new models and monsters so moving the crossbow stuff over to the player character models could be relatively simple.

As far as the skill tree goes, weapon-specific stuff usually has at least three wheels so crossbows would need that and they'd mainly get shoved into the Dex area of the tree. It'd definitely get crowded.

Finally, did you check how many suggestions there have been over the years for crossbows in game? https://www.google.com/search?ei=8Wn7W4Bik_T0A7Pgg6gE&q=crossbow+path+of+exile

There's stuff dating back to May 2012 (https://www.pathofexile.com/forum/view-thread/32168) so over 6 and a half years of people saying they want crossbows. One of the reasons you've gotten some hostile responses is because people are sick and tired of hearing about how people think their ideas for crossbows are new or interesting. GGG knows players want crossbows (and spears or other polearms) and if they can find a reasonable way of getting such weapons in that meaningfully improves the game in some way then they'll work on it and put it out.

Yup i always state out i would like crossbows ( Demon Hunter d3) and Javelins ( Amazons d2) to my Friends. More variety more Cool Content. I'm always open to it :).
I don't think the reload/ Magazine problem is real at all... I mean we don't actually have a number of arrows or have to pick more arrows up to fire too... so it's just aesthetics.