POE is not a FREE TO PLAY

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databeaver wrote:

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gibbousmoon wrote:

And I would go even further than that (and some people will agree with everything I said so far yet not agree with the subsequent statement), and state that any F2P arguments absolutely require (unconditionally) that GGG make a good-faith effort to make the game 100% playable, from start to finish, with 4 vanilla stash tabs.

That's... a difficult condition to defend, I think. Even for the most stalwart of GGG fans.

Not least because the condition is so ill-defined. What's considered "100% playable"? Do you need to have access to every single build out there? Do you need to be able to engage in large-scale trading and market manipulation? Do you need to store ten full sets of gear in your hardcore stash to prepare for a new character in case your current one dies? Or is it enough that you are able to make progress with a single character bit by bit?

What's considered "finish"? Do you need to acquire every single unique in the game? Do you need to fill all your character slots? Or is completing the atlas, beating all bosses and maybe reaching level 100 enough?

What portion of the player base does that condition need to apply to? There's apparently someone who has made it to level 100 in multiple leagues with just the four basic tabs. But I guess one person is not enough. Would 1% be? 10%? 50%?

And finally, would players need to make a good-faith effort to play with four tabs as well? Or is it perfectly fine to cry foul when your very own playstyle can't cope with four tabs anymore, no matter how much hoarding it involves?

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gibbousmoon wrote:

Those who bitch about this limitation almost always hold the position that they are not "reasonably competitive." So to really counter such sentiments, you would have to be able to explicitly counter that specific sentiment.

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databeaver wrote:

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gibbousmoon wrote:

Those who bitch about this limitation almost always hold the position that they are not "reasonably competitive." So to really counter such sentiments, you would have to be able to explicitly counter that specific sentiment.

I'll have to leave that to someone else since I'm not competitive nor do I have any interest in being competitive, stash tabs or no.

I'd like to point out that even without stash tabs, money still brings competitive advantages. A well-organized team with good computers and a coach is much more likely to win the race than someone playing alone at a public library. I don't know if that's a thing that happens in PoE though, since there's no money to be had from winning.

Edit: I guess such advantages are okay though as long as they're not being sold by the game's developer. At least I've never seen anyone mention anything about a competitive advantage in all those threads complaining about poor performance on old computers or unstable internet connections.

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Miská wrote:

Just because you think a dog is a cat, doesn't make it a cat.

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gibbousmoon wrote:

You need to be "reasonably competitive" with those 4 stash tabs.

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gibbousmoon wrote:

Just because you think a cat is a dog, it doesn't make it a dog.

Oh, what's that? I repeated your own nonsense argument right back at you without stating anything even the least bit relevant to this thread? Does it annoy you when people do that?

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gibbousmoon wrote:

And I would argue that you are indeed competitive by the very virtue of your playing this game: Either

1) You play in trade leagues, and compete with others for limited resources, traded for via loot and currency you find,

or

2) You play SSF, which is largely immune to the player-driven economy but still very much subject to balance decisions based on the capabilities of other players (which includes their ability to hoard itmes or trade them more effectively than other game players without the money to acquire such advantages).

In either case, you are competing, whether you like it or not.

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Phrazz wrote:

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gibbousmoon wrote:

You need to be "reasonably competitive" with those 4 stash tabs.

Why? (Maybe) you need to be "reasonable competitive" with those stash tabs for this game not to be P2W, but even if you'd have 1 stash tab, it would still be F2P. I think you mix up "P2W" and "F2P" in your head.

F2P doesn't - in any way - mean "enjoy the game for free and being competitive without compromises". Your personal, subjective definition of "F2P" is why you are very wrong in this debate.

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Miská wrote:

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gibbousmoon wrote:

Just because you think a cat is a dog, it doesn't make it a dog.

Oh, what's that? I repeated your own nonsense argument right back at you without stating anything even the least bit relevant to this thread? Does it annoy you when people do that?

If you want to be childish go right ahead. What does actually bother me though is people trying to damage the reputation of a great company by their own made up definitions.

That's also exactly why our interacting is gonna end here. Kinda getting tired of entertaining an obvious troll.

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Miská wrote:

some of you are butthurt you can't afford 5 bucks, or think you need to pretend you are some kind of SJW that will set the world straight.

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Turtledove wrote:

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Miská wrote:

some of you are butthurt you can't afford 5 bucks, or think you need to pretend you are some kind of SJW that will set the world straight.

Miska and I were arguing the same side. But I'll have to switch sides now because I want to be a SJW! hahaha

Just kidding, although I am disgusted by Miska's silly personal attacks. Listen sir if you have no respect for the person you're discussing something with then it would seem that you shouldn't even bother discussing anything with them?