Disconnect between Uber Lab/trials RNG compared to player expectations

TL;DR: Players basically treat the last 2 ascendancy points as fundamental parts of their class but GGG seems to treat them as some sort of "prestige points" and this discrepancy needs to be rectified.

I've noticed many threads saying the act of getting access to the Uber Lab and Uber Trials feels painfully random and disheartening and I generally agree with that.

But that led me to the question of why I and others felt it was so disheartening when stuff like item drops aren't as passionately complained about. Item RNG does still get complained about and rightfully so in many cases, but ascendancy points are quite another thing.

I came to the conclusion that the points gained from completing the Uber Lab are seen not as a perk but as the final "talent choices" so to speak that many other games have, and since they are seen as talent choices that means they're basically an inherent part of your character. It's comparable to the talent choices WoW gives you at levels 15, 30, and so on.

In other words, it's seen as something that should be gained automatically or relatively easily because it's a fundamental part of your character class. They are treated as passive points after all and those passive points are gained every level and then some through quests.

But if we compare them to regular passive points then I wonder if they're being compared to the passives gained from levels 90 to 100 and the difficulty, or rather tedium, in getting through those levels due to experience needs. One big difference I see is getting to 100 can be guaranteed by playing it safe and running trivial maps. Getting the last trial is technically not guaranteed unless there is some sort of RNG compensation for want of better term that will notice the player not getting the trial after several dozen other trials popping up and then automatically giving it to them, but I'm pretty sure GGG doesn't do that sort of thing.

The 90 to 100 comparison possibly sheds some light on why some at GGG thought it would be acceptable for trials to spawn even 1/10th as often as they do.

Why the difficulty in getting to level 100 is some sort of sacred cow, I don't know. I'd personally call it unreasonable to give that sort of thing so much prestige since there are far more interesting goals and challenges possible within the game both that the game sets for you and that you can set for yourself if you're even a little bit creative.

I also say it's unreasonable to give the final 2 ascendancy points such prestige that they need to be buried beneath sometimes hellacious RNG. The other possible rewards for completing Uber Lab are another matter and they absolutely do deserve to be gated behind RNG. What level of RNG works for that is up for debate of course.

So how do we lessen the problems of finding the needed map trials?

The most common fix I've seen is allowing us to put in an Offering along with a map to force that map to have a trial. The number of Offerings put in to get this is of course open to debate, as is whether that trial should even have an Offering reward if it was forced, but the fundamental mechanic here is if the current randomness is here to stay then we need to be able to force trial spawns at some reasonable cost. Offerings work since it requires we still engage with the content and are subject to some randomness, but we gain some control and that little bit of control is likely to be enough to let people feel like it's rewarding without being too punishing.

I don't expect any decoupling of ascendancy points from the lab. It'd be nice if we could gain them some other way so the item rewards from the lab can be tuned however they need to be and separate from our actual character abilities, but they've been so intertwined from the start that splitting them might not be feasible.

"

Jackalope_Gaming wrote:

The most common fix I've seen is allowing us to put in an Offering along with a map to force that map to have a trial. The number of Offerings put in to get this is of course open to debate, as is whether that trial should even have an Offering reward if it was forced, but the fundamental mechanic here is if the current randomness is here to stay then we need to be able to force trial spawns at some reasonable cost. Offerings work since it requires we still engage with the content and are subject to some randomness, but we gain some control and that little bit of control is likely to be enough to let people feel like it's rewarding without being too punishing.

yup, i've previously suggested and am a fan of the idea of putting 1 offering into map device opens 1 random trial that does not drop an offering, essentially doubling the number of attempts you get for completing 6 trials and giving you the illusion of target farming

I agree with the OP general sentiment and opinion of the unfortunate severe RNG difficulties sometimes getting the sixth and final trial for uber lab. My view on the situation is more historical though. What I mean is that when the poorly designed labyrinth was first released, the last two ascendancy points could generally considered to be more a bonus than necessary component of most all builds. It was probably at least a year after the initial release of the loathsome uber labyrinth before I ever forced myself to do this especially bad content, for example. Another example, the first release of the loathsome labyrinth didn't even offer the uber labyrinth yet.

However, things have definitely changed. Today the uber labyrinth is an important part of most all builds. GGG needs to "soften" the current RNG that sometimes restricts access to those final two ascendancy points until well into character level 80's. This currently is just a plain broken mechanic, IMHO.

I am thankful they made things easier where we can simply get to Uber Lab with one character in a league and that allows all of our others in that league to go in (if I remember right anyway) but there's still quite a bit of randomness involved with finally getting to that point. Somewhere in the 2.3 or 2.4 time I seem to recall ProjectPT playing an Essence Drain character SSF and it took him over two weeks to get that last trial despite playing at least 6 or more hours a day from what I recall.

Taking over two weeks to get there by playing 6 hours a day (6*2*7 = 84 hours or more) to get the last trial should not happen. Those last two points are a fundamental part of the character's progression now and GGG is balancing around that such as with the bleed-related changes to Slayer and Gladiator.

Its a shit system that chris refuses to acknowledge, its even worse on xbox where trade chat doesnt exist.

"

Fhark wrote:

Its a shit system that chris refuses to acknowledge, its even worse on xbox where trade chat doesnt exist.

Oh yeah, Xbox players are pretty well fucked with Uber Lab.

There are unlikely to be very many defenders out there of the current system for uber trials (or even their existence, for that matter, as they're just time consuming busywork).

The key problem that leads to inaction might be how little advantage it provides for marketing the game, relative to effort needed to change the system. GGG might also be a bit reluctant to say anything about labyrinth given how many say they find lab boring and annoying whenever they do it.

So, even though it's a change a lot of players would appreciate it might fall under the "round tuit" category.

I believe it will change one day, though.

This is one of the reasons that lately, I tend to play standard more than the league.