[3.3] Octavian's RainbowTrap Fire Trap Build. Everything viable.

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nel0angel0 wrote:

The best way to compensate the loss of +skills on fire trap (from shroud) is to go Saboteur.
From a fast pob swap i made (using exact same gear as OP, removing the +4 gem level from shroud):
losing
- ascendant pathfinder perks
- around 400 life (previous around 5800, now around 5400)
- around 2% life regen from passives

gaining
- 10% less dmg taken (from sabo) which imo compensates very nicely the 400 life lost
- 20% chance for traps to trigger additional time (huge)
- generally much more trap dmg from passive tree and sabo tree, which more than enough compensates the loss of +4 gem level.

prove me wrong
https://pastebin.com/qz6Nn8Ve

Prove you wrong? You're fundamentally making the same argument I made above, which is that Sabo gains damage but loses clear speed due to the loss of pathfinder and that defense is roughly a wash.

The fundamental difference is you seem to believe that loss of damage is relevant where I don't. If your build can end a boss phase in 2 seconds, this one can end it in no more than 2.7 seconds and probably less. I'd much rather have the additional clear speed, or something else like Necro for Bone Offering on CWDT, or Guardian for the inconsistent regen for darkness or if you can't spare the slots.

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tanis0 wrote:

Prove you wrong? You're fundamentally making the same argument I made above, which is that Sabo gains damage but loses clear speed due to the loss of pathfinder and that defense is roughly a wash.

The fundamental difference is you seem to believe that loss of damage is relevant where I don't. If your build can end a boss phase in 2 seconds, this one can end it in no more than 2.7 seconds and probably less. I'd much rather have the additional clear speed, or something else like Necro for Bone Offering on CWDT, or Guardian for the inconsistent regen for darkness or if you can't spare the slots.

I am sorry to shatter your dreams, but the difference in damage is approx 50% MORE if you go sabo.
And what is the clear speed you gain as ascendant pathfinder? movement speed? please..

The boss damage you are dreaming of above is with +4 trap gems in chest.
This is no more possible, even +2 on shroud will be out of reach for 90% of the players, so i am trying to compensate this damage loss by going Sabo.

Scion does not have more life, the Sabo node less dmg taken from blinded enemies makes up for it (even more, so more EHP).
Scion only has more versatility in the passive tree because he has more skill points and starts in the middle.
As for the pathfinder movement speed, i dont, and i never will trade approx 50% more damage for 10% movement speed.

There is absolutely no reason to go scion unless you want passive tree versatility for some reason.

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nel0angel0 wrote:

I am sorry to shatter your dreams,

If you want snark, fine by me.

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but the difference in damage is approx 50% MORE if you go sabo.

If you're going to be that condescending, you should probably do the math first.

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And what is the clear speed you gain as ascendant pathfinder? movement speed? please..

I guess it's fair that pathfinder is less good now with the shield charge change. Probably better to go raider for perma-onslaught which is 20% additional movement speed, or just elementalist if you want more damage.

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The boss damage you are dreaming of above is with +4 trap gems in chest.
This is no more possible, even +2 on shroud will be out of reach for 90% of the players, so i am trying to compensate this damage loss by going Sabo.

You clearly didn't understand my math if you think I was expecting to get the +4 bonus. The math was showing the difference between what was possible before (+4) and what's possible now (+2). If you want to compare +2 vs +0, it's roughly the same percentage-wise. If you want to say most players never could afford a good corruption in any case, last league or now, then your point is... What exactly? It would be exactly the same as last league, the other changes to fire trap and traps in general notwithstanding.

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Scion does not have more life, the Sabo node less dmg taken from blinded enemies makes up for it (even more, so more EHP).
Scion only has more versatility in the passive tree because he has more skill points and starts in the middle.

And when you spend those points on more life, it's roughly a wash with the 10% less damage before considering your other ascendancy. As we've both said previously. So why are we still beating this horse?

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As for the pathfinder movement speed, i dont, and i never will trade approx 50% more damage for 10% movement speed.

First, why is your build level 96 when you're complaining about not being able to buy expensive gear? Most players aren't getting to level 96 either and have to make more tradeoffs than this which favors Ascendant at lower levels both due to the extra skill points meaning easier choices and to less diminishing returns. But whatever, I'll use level 96.

You didn't have power and frenzy charges turned on, but they are near permanently up with this build. Otherwise, I haven't changed your settings.

For the first comparison, I'm keeping my build as close to yours as I reasonably can, though it's not my preferred way. So PoB is showing these highlights going from your build to Ascendant (the tree labeled Ascendant 1 in the pastebin):

3.8% more damage per hit
3.6% more trap throwing time
2.93% increased effective crit chance (damage already accounted for above but more consistancy)
-1 AoE radius (from 26 to 25, so 3.85% less radius per trap)
+57 dex (relevant since you have to pick up more on gear than I do)
3.8% more life (equates to 6.58% less EHP than you after accounting for 10% less damage taken)
11% increased movement speed

So how are you're getting 50% more damage than me again? After accounting for the 20% chance to trigger a trap twice, you're hits are doing an average of 15.6% more and you throw 3.86% more per second. So your damage is, best case, 20.1% more in most situations. Slightly more if you're prepping a boss (which we both can't instantly nuke) due to Perfect Crime.

So here's a second bite at it since you want to prioritize damage. This build uses elementalist (Ascendant 2) and makes a few small tree changes:

13.1% more damage per hit than yours (3.7% more damage after your 20% chance to trigger twice and my Elementalist shock)
+17 dex
8.3% more health (2.53% less EHP after 10% less damage taken)

So standing in place and throwing, that's basically identical damage. I don't think this is the best way to build since the damage is more than strong enough without pushing it this hard, but your claim that sabo gets 50% more damage than ascendant is laughably false.

Here's the pastebin for verification: https://pastebin.com/u6KYjAz9

tl;dr https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FPD5q6DC43M

Well now you guys have me scratching my head. I started out as Scion, following the guide and would ascend to Saboteur. But it seems like starting out as a Shadow and going Sabo would have been an viable option?

Don't want to get in the middle of your discussion, but did I make a mistake going scion?

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saxisa wrote:

Well now you guys have me scratching my head. I started out as Scion, following the guide and would ascend to Saboteur. But it seems like starting out as a Shadow and going Sabo would have been an viable option?

Don't want to get in the middle of your discussion, but did I make a mistake going scion?

You go scion and grab both saboteur and pathfinder. This gives you a lot of survivability, movement speed, but most importantly, penetration to all elements. You're also really close to the scion life wheel on the passive tree. This makes scion very worthwhile for this build.

Scion may not have the full power of an ascendancy, but her strength lies in combining some of the elements of 2 ascendancies. If the synergy is good, like in this case, it's very worthwhile to use her.

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Gwyn01 wrote:

You go scion and grab both saboteur and pathfinder. This gives you a lot of survivability, movement speed, but most importantly, penetration to all elements. You're also really close to the scion life wheel on the passive tree. This makes scion very worthwhile for this build.

Scion may not have the full power of an ascendancy, but her strength lies in combining some of the elements of 2 ascendancies. If the synergy is good, like in this case, it's very worthwhile to use her.

Ok whew. Are you doing the build as well?

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tanis0 wrote:

...

Ok, so what is the argument after all?
That Scion has more EHP than Sabo? not true.
That Scion has more dmg than Sabo? not true.
That Scion has more survivability than Sabo? not true.

Why the hell should i go build Scion over Sabo then?

It is a common misconception to confuse what is better generally than what is better for you.
If you like Scion and mixed ascendancies little perks, then Scion is better for you, but you cannot ignore the fact that Sabo is better for trap playstyle in almost every way.
I will admit not by much, but still better.

I cant see people here suggesting that Scion is better, its just not true and in the limits of misleading, we have to say at least that Sabo is a bit better option.

hey, i like to see some discussions going on, in may opinion it´s always usefull to improve builds from league to league. Before the Delve league started i also thought about going Sabo over Scion. I trusted the Guide and feel pretty good until now (Level 79), even if the Pathfinder Ascendancy doesn´t really feel useful, but the pen is nice and i really like the flask regen! I still miss a lot core Items, because i have never been someone with tons of currency, but i hope to fix that from time to time.

This build seems to do a lot of damage, as a Scion or a Sabo, for sure it will be a big difference if i have a +4 traps chest or not (by the way would empower be a way?), but does it make a big difference if i kill shaper in 3 seconds or maybe in 8 seconds? (not sure a this point ^^)
For me the most frustrating point is to die, most time to the darkness, or to any mobs, so actually i prefere a better defense / higher life pool over more dmg. So any advices are welcome :)


By the way, what do you think about this Tree?
http://poeurl.com/b4lK

- I took the Uberlab points to start from Shadow, to take the dmg and trap dmg nodes
- Saved 5 Points from "Shaper" Node to the node bevor MoM

Quick question:

Shroud of the lightless will obv hold our main trap "Fire Trap" correct?
Then the shaper gloves extra trap is not being used? Or does this mod apply to traps regardless if they are socketed in the gloves themselves or not?

Sorry if this is dumb but i always thought the extra trap only applies to traps that are socketed in the gloves themselves?!

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Bragisdottir wrote:

Quick question:

Shroud of the lightless will obv hold our main trap "Fire Trap" correct?
Then the shaper gloves extra trap is not being used? Or does this mod apply to traps regardless if they are socketed in the gloves themselves or not?

Sorry if this is dumb but i always thought the extra trap only applies to traps that are socketed in the gloves themselves?!

The extra trap is global, it applies to the Fire Trap in your chest.