So, Vaal pact nerf?

in fairness that build obviously had terrible defense. Temp chains curse rather than enfeeble, no defense flasks up, given he has energy shield hes probably using es gear = no phys damage reduction and hes missing over 1000 of his es. Has he basically got nothing other than resists and 5.9k hit points at the time of his death?


Instant lifeleech would not have saved him, he got 1 shot from a crit. Having invested thought into having actual defenses would have saved him. About 1/3 of the damage he took there was lightning, the other 2/3 was physical. No endurance charges? no basalt? Arctic Armour? enfeeble? fortify? Actual armour? A granite flask? If people dont use the things in the game to deal with incoming damage how can you blame GGG? The tools are there.

that map has nearly 200% extra damage as lightning. So if we theorize it does 4k physical that means it deals an extra 8k as lightning. 75% resist brings the lightning damage down to 2k, so ur taking 2k ele damage and 4k phys for a total hit of 6k damage. If you deal with that 4k phys you survive this sort of thing, if you dont and you have less than 6k hp youre fucked. Basalt + 3 endurance = 27% phys reduction, that alone would bring the damage down from 6k to 4.9k and you go from dying to surviving. Add enfeeble, 30% less damage = 3.4k damage taken, it also has a crit damage reduction and lowers the chance of him even scoring a crit to start with, so that could drop the damage taken down from 6k to maybe 3k or even lower. Fortify, 20% less damage taken, brings it down from 3k to 2.4k...




I bet you he put a lot of thought into stacking a whole range of damage multipliers on his skill tho right? Layers of increased followed by more this and more that scaling damage up and up. Blight, ed, wither totem, arcane surge, frenzy charges, maybe the threshold jewel, swift affliction? void manipulation? controlled destruction? Efficacy? People are really good at having massively layered damage scaling, but if they then completely ignore the entire library of damage reduction layers they might end up dying. You cant blame the game for that. If he had no frenzy, no wither, no arcane surge, no blight, no increased damage nodes on his tree and no support gems in his essence drain would it be the games fault that his ED did no damage? Because in defense terms that essentially the equiv of what he had running at the point when he got hit from what I can see.

that one shots horrendous, for those saying no phys defence nanananana its 200% lightning damage level 76 the phys really isn't that high its mostly ele.

I'm mostly onboard with your theorycraft there Snorkle except hes not getting hit for 6k hes getting hit for 7.7k, he could definitely use some more varied defences but the damage value is still retarded, your talking about damage values that would one shot evade bases or blockers (as they won't have 7.7k of sponge anyway)

my personal theory is he hits two / gets hit twice, It doesn't look to me like he goes straight to zero theres a vast fast interim value. I've done this map with alot of characters and never been hit for such a huge amount including ES sponges etc.

Edit: its a double hit i got it paused on the right frame, first hit drops to 3459 health, 973 mana but a full shock is applied so next crits even harder.

I actually think you'd need evade to survive this, general reduction (like fortify) or armour so high you reduce the phys to basically zero I don't think a varied approach would cut bullshit of this magnitude.

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Draegnarrr wrote:

that one shots horrendous, for those saying no phys defence nanananana its 200% lightning damage level 76 the phys really isn't that high its mostly ele.

I'm mostly onboard with your theorycraft there Snorkle except hes not getting hit for 6k hes getting hit for 7.7k, he could definitely use some more varied defences but the damage value is still retarded, your talking about damage values that would one shot evade bases or blockers (as they won't have 7.7k of sponge anyway)

my personal theory is he hits two / gets hit twice, It doesn't look to me like he goes straight to zero theres a vast fast interim value. I've done this map with alot of characters and never been hit for such a huge amount including ES sponges etc.

Edit: its a double hit i got it paused on the right frame, first hit drops to 3459 health, 973 mana but a full shock is applied so next crits even harder.

I actually think you'd need evade to survive this, general reduction (like fortify) or armour so high you reduce the phys to basically zero I don't think a varied approach would cut bullshit of this magnitude.

enfeeble and basalt and he lives, guaranteed. hell, even having a CWDT/IC might've saved him if it was indeed two hits

the ST hits hard but it doesnt hit THAT hard with proper defenses

and nah, the phys part is a large chunk of the hit. a 4k phys hit with no mitigation means that 8k lightning gets reduced to 2k lightning=> phys is by far the predominant damage type

Ive done mao kun on enough toons to know those with ton of hard phys mitigation (armour, ecs, toh) dont feel those STs. evasion toons can evade them+enfeeble+blind+basalt=pretty much never get hit and when you do its not enough for one shot, not even close

ya its ST so it hits multiple times in the right position. he definitely does get hit at least twice.

but this is what im talking about - people haven't invested in things like armor/mitigation or evasion/avoidance as much anymore because we just rely on instant leech.

but a death that fast VP wouldn't save anybody regardless of your build/attack or anything. you just die too quickly.

he has some defensive flasks but none of them were up for the hit - he just made a mistake by going into the attack. MoM obviously isn't good enough as your only defensive layer other than life pool.

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Draegnarrr wrote:

that one shots horrendous, for those saying no phys defence nanananana its 200% lightning damage level 76 the phys really isn't that high its mostly ele.

I'm mostly onboard with your theorycraft there Snorkle except hes not getting hit for 6k hes getting hit for 7.7k, he could definitely use some more varied defences but the damage value is still retarded, your talking about damage values that would one shot evade bases or blockers (as they won't have 7.7k of sponge anyway)

my personal theory is he hits two / gets hit twice, It doesn't look to me like he goes straight to zero theres a vast fast interim value. I've done this map with alot of characters and never been hit for such a huge amount including ES sponges etc.

Edit: its a double hit i got it paused on the right frame, first hit drops to 3459 health, 973 mana but a full shock is applied so next crits even harder.

I actually think you'd need evade to survive this, general reduction (like fortify) or armour so high you reduce the phys to basically zero I don't think a varied approach would cut bullshit of this magnitude.

ahh, so its mind over matter hu? that would make sense for that sort of build, good spot.

200% lightning looking at starting with 0 phys mitigation is still a 1/3 lightning damage 2/3 physical damage situation though cause resists automatically wipe 75% of any elemental damage. Extra damage as ele, even when its that big, its always still really a mostly physical hit and youll live or die based on your physical mitigation if it gets passed any avoidance you have. You need to be dealing with an ele conversion skill I think before the ele portion really starts to rival the physical.


I managed to get the frame ur looking at, takes him down to 3,459 life. Good spot I had to stretch my youtube across 2x 27inch monitors to get enough fine tuning on the bar to move to it. Thats a 3,264 damage hit then with 2,176 of it being physical and 1,088 being lightning. Honestly for a crit thats not that big a hit, its the double hit burst that got him.

With a 50% more damage from a shock on the second its a 4896 damage hit with 3,264 of that being phys? I think a proper armour character wouldnt be worried about that at all, its 2,720 total ele damage from both hits they have to eat and the phys bit I think they would massively mitigate. Evasion as said probably downgrades it from a crit and takes away one of the hits entirely, I dont think an evasion build would be worried by it either. I would say a proper armour or evaison build survives that all day.











Im just rerunning quick numbers on what mitigation would actually have done for him out of interest. Ppl not interested in the actual mechanics of damage can tune out here this will get long.

Enfeeble would have 60% less curse effect cause its a boss. Gonna presume both still hit and crit despite the acc nerf that enfeeble has cause its impossible to know where his entropy counter and base evaison etc are at. So that would be -12% crit multi and 12% kess damage dealt by the mob. The first hit is 3,264 damage, the crit multi reduction takes it down to 2,962 and then the less damage down to 2,607. That would make the shocked 2nd hit a 3,910 hit, for a total of 6,517 damage done by the combined hits.

His hp at the point he is hit is 7,696 so enfeeble alone would have saved him. The combined damage without enfeeble is 8,160. So just that 1 layer of mitigation would have been the difference.


If you also factor endurance and basalt, thats a combined 27% phys reduction. First hit is 2,607 damage with 1738 phys + 869 lightning. the 27% reduction takes the phys down to 1268 making the total hit 2,137. The shocked 2nd hit then becomes 3,205 making the total damage taken 5,342.

If he had a fortify up it comes down to 4,273.

So thats using enfeeble instead of temp chains, 2 gem slots for fortify + enduring cry and 1 potion slot to go from 8,160 damage taken to 4,273 (presuming I got all that maths correct). Theres a good chance enfeebles accuracy debuff might also have caused a miss and/or a downgrade from the crit so it might even have been a lot more significant than that.










People hype up mom and life pool, but really I think a standard armour character survives that situation, a standard evasion character survives it and even if he removed his mom and his energy shield having those 4 simple layers of enfeeble, basalt, endurance and fortify would have let him survive that situation purely on the back of his 5,396 life.

This is where I take an issue when people say defenses are shit and only life pool matters, pure life, mom, energy shield, just stack those cause defenses are shit and not worth investing in. I dont like to argue with people, I think some folk around here think I want to be mr knowitall, I really dont, I strongly dislike disagreeing with people in any situation. But I like discussing the game and when you run numbers on actual damage situations I dont see how the 'defenses are shit' bit holds up. An extension of the defenses are shit and not worth it 'logic' im seeing atm is that it follows from there that right siders need vaal pact to deal with these 1 shot/instant burst damage type things like the one were looking at, defenses are too expensive passively and dont function to keep them alive when u could just spend those points on more life.

I can only really scrutinize the builds Ive tried, I dont know what these people are doing because they mostly have hidden characters and wont post their builds for the sake of sharing knowledge and actually getting to the bottom of the facts here for the benefit of everyone. I have a non vp melee ranger on the right side and apart from life and damage nodes it spends a total of 5 passives on pure defense from the tree, thats acro + phase acro.

So weve seen what enfeeble, basalt, fortify and endurance does to that 8,160 damage spike taking it down to 4,273. With 5 dedicated defense passives on the tree and the rest just being gear, flasks and gems a melee raider gets enfeeble, basalt, fortify, endurance, taste of hate, arctic armour, lightning coil, 18k evasion, 46% dodge, 40% spell dodge, 18% block. Im not going to run the maths on all those layers of defense but my estimation is that in that same situation the raider would take between 1,000 and 0 damage depending on the entropy counter and dodge rolls seeing as you would evade at least 1 of those 2 hits + it wouldnt crit + youre shock immune, with a chance you might also dodge, block or evade the second hit also. A possibility of 1k damage, with a good chance of taking literally 0 damage at all, having spent 5 passives on defense and being a character with the potential to have 7k life.

So when you come from a viewpoint of "just stack life because thats all that works", and youre looking at 8,160 damage hits and going WTF??!?! How the fuck is this balance, GGG what the actual shit is going on over there with your damage spike bullshit game?... You have to understand GGG are running these numbers too. I know tldr omg snorkle posting wall of text as ever, if people care enough to have these long threads endlessly about this stuff for years I would hope they care enough to look at the math and the mechanics. You can be sure GGG are looking at the numbers and where people who write off defense are seeing a 8k+ instant damage spike GGG are seeing "well, if you invested 5 points out of 115 into defense and geared your character correctly as a right side melee this situation deals between 0 and 1k damage, maybe 1.3k at a push". Wheres the case there for massively buffing defenses? Wheres the case there for spike damage being too high? Really, look at it, 5 passives on defense + sorting your gear and gem slots out takes you from an 8k damage hit to at worst a 1.3kish damage hit as a right side melee build. Anyone whos taken the time to read all this remember that when u hear people who dismiss defenses and say only life pool matters and then talk about damage spikes that when they talk about 8k damage spikes its likely a 1k, maybe 1.5k damage spike its just that they build characters who take 5x as much damage as characters with defense and they havent worked out that they cant get 5x as much life with the 5 passive points, 3 gem slots and a 25% aura reserve it takes to have actual defenses. I think its important that people remember that if were serious about having these conversations, because this isnt the first thread like this, weve had 3 different simultaneous incarnations of this thread on the forums at all points for the last 4 years non stop. Im presuming that means people care about the facts of these situations.

A further observation re: the ci post mortem and the infamous rory comment...

Defences on scrubcore? lol, for what?
Evasion/dodge on HC? lol, its not safe, you will be oneshoted by any rare devouver not to mention bosses

Use armour and flasks and you stand alive without VP to which all accustomed. Leave your zone of comfort lazy men and turn on your reaction.

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oestergreen wrote:

They need to FIX things like this...

ONE axe hit him and chopped his life, insta RIP... ONE AXE dudes cmon @GGG ...

You discourage people from hardcore with mechanics that punish you so unreasonably and then you wonder why everyone tries to find "GOD BUILDS" that can facetank your bosses with life-steal......

I would accept if u get hit by 2 or 3 axes then yes fine insta-rip ... but ONE AXE CMON GGG ...

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GS0V5zndUEA

lmao

One axe :D Remember, the current monster damage is still balanced around 12k ES builds with Vaal Pact.

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Snorkle_uk wrote:

5.9k hit points at the time of his death?

He has 8.8k overall. Life + ES + MOM.

It was two hits. It looks like a small first hit that reduced his ES slightly. And then he took a massive hit for 8k. He had 5.4k HP + 500 ES + 1.8k mana = 7.7k effective HP at the moment he ripped. So it was one 8k hit that killed him.

"

If he had no frenzy, no wither, no arcane surge, no blight, no increased damage nodes on his tree and no support gems in his essence drain would it be the games fault that his ED did no damage?

Even with all of that - frenzy and power charges, Contagion, Wither and Blight, all damage multipliers - build does awful damage lol. You have to use Wither and Blight to kill anything. ED was ok back when decay or poison were a thing. Today, if you roll increased monster life + enfeeble on a T5 map and you're playing ED, may god help you... :D

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toyotatundra wrote:

"

Snorkle_uk wrote:

5.9k hit points at the time of his death?

He has 8.8k overall. Life + ES + MOM.

It was two hits. It looks like a small first hit that reduced his ES slightly. And then he took a massive hit for 8k. He had 5.4k HP + 500 ES + 1.8k mana = 7.7k effective HP at the moment he ripped. So it was one 8k hit that killed him.

reread what Draegnarrr and I wrote after that, he has 7,696 at the point where he dies but he actually takes 2 hits there, first one hits for 3,264 total damage and shocks him, just before he dies there a small amount of frames with him having 3,459 life and a dent in his mana. He doesnt get hit for 8k in 1 go its a 3,264 hit that also shocks and then hits a second time, presumably doing 4896 as its the same thing hitting twice just multiplied by 1.5 thanks to the shock on crit. Its technically a burst of attack damage rather than a 1 shot. If you have 50% or more chance to evade that monster you would never die in that situation because of entropy.



https://i.imgur.com/hgjPPSj.jpg

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Snorkle_uk wrote:

reread what Draegnarrr and I wrote after that, he has 7,696 at the point where he dies but he actually takes 2 hits there, first one hits for 3,264 total damage and shocks him, just before he dies there a small amount of frames with him having 3,459 life and a dent in his mana. He doesnt get hit for 8k in 1 go its a 3,264 hit that also shocks and then hits a second time, presumably doing 4896 as its the same thing hitting twice just multiplied by 1.5 thanks to the shock on crit. Its technically a burst of attack damage rather than a 1 shot. If you have 50% or more chance to evade that monster you would never die in that situation because of entropy.

Do you mind explaining to a poe noob (me) how evade works in poe? since its a % in the stat sheet, how can it be relied upon to save you from one or two-shots? I mean %-wise, even with 50% evade, you still gonna rip half the time, making the whole point of stacking evasion rather moot? or something i misunderstood? What is entropy and how does it relate to evasion?

Thx if you care to explain ;D so I can wise up on the poe mechanics hehe.