Trade Manifesto

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Synopse wrote:

Yes, some of the arguments in this manifest feels incoherent, but I think this is because the manifest tries to fight for a design decision that is up to GGG. PoE is designed for a certain target audience and easy trading is not considered to be part of it.

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Synopse wrote:

Trade is a shortcut to achieving everything the game has to offer. That is the reason why gamedesigners are not willing to change their philosophy. Every ARPG is rigged this way. It is part of the formular making ARPG successful over 20 years now. It is the grind that makes the people playing the game not the best in slot character having achieved everything.

I'm a somewhat seasoned gamer with quite a few ARPGs (or "loot games" in general) under my belt, so I like to think I have a good idea how "The Grind(tm)" works. :)

Not only that, I also consider myself part of that target audience.

That post may have started as a way of venting out my frustration with the trade system, but the more I put it into words, the more I realized I didn't want easier trade, but rather wanted a game that didn't actively push me towards trading.

I think the manifesto feels incoherent because it tries to fight for two conflicting design philosophies at the same time. It's right there at the top: "Items Matter. Trade is Important."

Ironically, for items to matter, the current trade system is OK. It's personal, it requires one-on-one interaction. It makes even traded items "special". In theory. The theory falls apart when trading becomes the preferred method for getting everything you need, because despite being a major speed bump and source of frustration, it's still the most efficient method of acquisition.

But if trade is important, and should be used for pretty much everything in the game (like it is now) then it definitely needs to be streamlined, diminishing the value of self-found items even further.

There are no winners as long as they try to hold on to both of these ideas.

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As I've said elsewhere, the real problem might be that the drop rates are balanced with Standard League in mind, despite the temporary leagues being "the big thing". In Standard it works because you would get everything you need, given enough time. In temp leagues you simply don't have that kind of time. There are build specific items you need to get ASAP (because tick-tock) so what happens is "trade to the rescue!"...

So we trade. Even if we hate it.

It is a very good discussion, we are having here.

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NemoJr wrote:

That post may have started as a way of venting out my frustration with the trade system, but the more I put it into words, the more I realized I didn't want easier trade, but rather wanted a game that didn't actively push me towards trading.

I know what you are talking about. I personally try to ignore trading most of the time when playing ARPGs.

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NemoJr wrote:

I think the manifesto feels incoherent because it tries to fight for two conflicting design philosophies at the same time. It's right there at the top: "Items Matter. Trade is Important."

That is a good analysis. It seems to be that GGG has a tendency picking conflicting design goals. (E.g., Beastiary's interuption of clear speed and buffing clear speed at the same time.)

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NemoJr wrote:

So we trade. Even if we hate it.

Actually, that is something I refuse to join, and surprisingly, it doesn't hurt too much. The poision forcing one to trade is comparing one's game progress with that of streamers and pro-gamers, which I don't do.

Instead of picking the shortcut of trading to catch up, I play at my pace and even do stuff in standard only, because I don't progress fast enough to open endgame content in 3 month in league.
First, it felt odd, because I was hitting the wall pretty early and progress curve was steep. But after a while I realized that I play for the fun again, not for catching up in progress.

That is my preference of course, but PoE allows my to play it myway. Yes, it take time and it can be frustating, but this is based on my decision and no longer linked to players who can play more often and play more efficient builds than I do. I acually play builds which perform good but are not meta. In this case, trading can be ignored, if you can live with having progress stagnating in yellow maps and stalling on red maps, till you are lucky enough to find the required upgrades (or you decided to join the meta and pick on of the uber-skill of the league).

To me, it feels much more rewarding to find the loot by myself. A trade may open new content quickly but then you never felt the joy of having that item dropping to your feet. This joy keeps me motivated and trading never can do that for me. I acknowledge that there are different opinions on that, but that is allright. It requires a lot of patience and it can pile-up frustation massively, if you are stuck and waiting for an upgrade, but that is the grind as I like it... ;-)

(Edit: Typos)

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Synopse wrote:

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NemoJr wrote:

So we trade. Even if we hate it.

Actually, that is something I refuse to join, and surprisingly, it doesn't hurt too much. The poision forcing one to trade is comparing one's game progress with that of streamers and pro-gamers, which I don't do.

Instead of picking the shortcut of trading to catch up, I play at my pace and even do stuff in standard only, because I don't progress fast enough to open endgame content in 3 month in league.

For me, personally, the "poison" that's ruining my fun isn't peer pressure, but the other thing you mentioned. I don't care how the "top players" play, nor do I need the confidence boost from having higher virtual numbers than the "scrubs".

What pisses me off to no end is the time pressure. It pisses me off because, like you said, it's nigh-impossible to both "play it your way" and feel like you've experienced all the league has to offer. It's like the game is telling you "either play it the most efficient way possible, or go play Standard, you filthy casual" which I just might do, league exclusive rewards be damned.

But yeah, good talk. I like discussions about game mechanics and psychology, so I tend to get a bit carried away sometimes. :)

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NemoJr wrote:

What pisses me off to no end is the time pressure. It pisses me off because, like you said, it's nigh-impossible to both "play it your way" and feel like you've experienced all the league has to offer. It's like the game is telling you "either play it the most efficient way possible, or go play Standard, you filthy casual" which I just might do, league exclusive rewards be damned.

That is my observation too. Actually, GGG is the one transporting peer preasure through forcing everyone playing clear speed meta in leagues. They want us to burn bright and fast, every league, and without a break in between. Thenagain, standard is completely different: slow pace and stable in content.

An intersting observeration, I never realized it that clear: Standard and league have conflicting design goals. I always thought that league content is considered to be beta testing for new game mechanics, but actually they split content in slow and fast pace game play.
That is arilliant!

I wonder if this happened by purpose or by accident. Anyway, it helps allot on decision making, if playing standard or league.

For me, standard becomes even more apealing now. Actually, I'm already playing a lot standard but from time to time I join the league, just realizing that it is still the clear speed meta and not how I like to play this game.

Too bad that not every league content is intergrated to standard, but that is the grain of salt playing standard, I guess.

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Synopse wrote:

I always thought that league content is considered to be beta testing for new game mechanics, but actually they split content in slow and fast pace game play.

I think it's a little bit of both. What better way to get free testers than offering them shiny in-game rewards? Hell, they even have a deadline! Professional QA personnel that you don't need to pay!

YOU HEAR THAT GGG? I KNOW WHAT YOU'RE UP TO! ;)

I'm not ashamed to admit that's how they drew me in, as well.

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Synopse wrote:

Too bad that not every league content is intergrated to standard, but that is the grain of salt playing standard, I guess.

That's pretty much the only reason I can't ignore the temp leagues entirely. Yet.

Even the things that do get added are sometimes gutted to the point of uselessness. I feel that stuff like breaches and essences, for example, only really work when they're fairly abundant, if not in every instance.

What's the point of low-level essences when you collect ~5-10 of them (most of which aren't what you need) during your entire early leveling process? Or with breaches being as rare as they are, when you get ~2 splinters per breach, and need 100 of each kind for them to be useful, hasn't "the grind" gone too far?

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NemoJr wrote:

I think it's a little bit of both. What better way to get free testers than offering them shiny in-game rewards? Hell, they even have a deadline! Professional QA personnel that you don't need to pay!

Then it is double brilliant!

As a free-to-play game, it is fair to give something in return when playing it.
Actually, I like to give my feedback on the new content. My hopes are that GGG can improve it that way I maybe liked better.
For me, the clear speed is the annoying part, not being tricked into a beta test.

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NemoJr wrote:

Even the things that do get added are sometimes gutted to the point of uselessness. I feel that stuff like breaches and essences, for example, only really work when they're fairly abundant, if not in every instance.

What's the point of low-level essences when you collect ~5-10 of them (most of which aren't what you need) during your entire early leveling process? Or with breaches being as rare as they are, when you get ~2 splinters per breach, and need 100 of each kind for them to be useful, hasn't "the grind" gone too far?

I am not sure, if it is gutted to the point of uselessness or if it just feels like that because we are able to compare it with the league related.

For instance, I skipped breach and it doesn't feel too bad find a few breach splinter. Thenagain, it can take a very long time till you can open you first breach map. This league they added breach as a zana mod making breachlords much more available in standard as well. But yes, it is still grind and you need chaos orbs to run zana mods.

Actually, I like the slow grind in standard. It is a guarantee that there is still something to achieve, even if I play this game for another 2-3 years. If I think of how boring D1-3 got after finding all important uniques with ever class then I am happy that GGG has much more to offer and I do not necessarly spoil myself with clear speed meta in standard. You can even do a rest by creating a SSF character which is pretty cool in terms of replay value. Actually, standard has much more to offer than one might see at a glance.
Thanks for helping me to find new incentives playing standard. :)

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Synopse wrote:

I am not sure, if it is gutted to the point of uselessness or if it just feels like that because we are able to compare it with the league related.

For instance, I skipped breach and it doesn't feel too bad find a few breach splinter.

Funny enough, I also wasn't present during the Breach league, but I did make my highest-level-yet character during the last Flashback event when breaches were... what, 1 in every 3 instances or something? It felt about right.

I'm guessing even in Standard, the splinters would be more like a counter that's ticking ever-so-slowly towards 100 (that I'd largely ignore until it is 100), rather than something I'd look forward to. But hey, if it works for you, great.

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Synopse wrote:

Thanks for helping me to find new incentives playing standard. :)

Shh... I wouldn't want GGG to think I'm chasing players away from their precious temp leagues. So let's just keep it between us, here, on the internet. OK?

I should go.

This manifesto was outdated when it was written. Very little to say there.

If you want a community sales experience, you need a community environment. $Trade anyone? Oh, right, this cancer is filled with the same kinds of price scalping you find at a major sporting event. "WTT my 20 fusing for your 1 exalt" or some other clearly outrageous price.

I don't know why GGG claims to be concerned with how easy it is for the no-lifers to get better gear, everything they do is centered on converting the average player into no-lifers.

I am not advocating what comes next, but consider for a moment how D3 dealt with this issue. To keep from converting humans into D3 playing robots/machines, after the collapse of the RMAH (there was never an issue with the AH), Loot 2.0 made it easier for casual players to get the gear they really wanted without destroying the pursuit of new loot (6 mods to roll and high variation with those rolls means casual can have set pieces but only the no-lifers can have the best gear, a win win for D3 under the specific problem they wanted to solve.) Again, I'm not advocating for this; I think this would be the end of POE, imo.

The next question is, do the players want to be social with trading? As far as I can tell, the player base doesn't even necessarily like being social while playing. Evidence? Guilds. In D3, a more social game, guilds and communities are all over the place. In POE, I see many people in a guild by themselves ; and of the larger guilds, it's usually a place to help newbies by providing a shared stash with garbage uniques. Global is hit or miss between trolling, the one aspy in chat, a lot of "please google this for me", and a few people who like to google for other people. (I really like Global....I do a little bit of each...though, my trolling is usually to obvious to bait anyone....sad times.)

All the same, the one issue with the AH in D3 was that people stopped playing the game in order to play the AH. The AH was not the problem so much as the loot system, and the result was that you went about 30 seconds before someone comments on how D3 was the first AH similuator with an ARPG mini game.

POE's trading can be this way at times too. Take maps for an example. With so many maps, the price of maps is below the price point at which most people would violate one of their portals to make the sale (assuming the price was not a price fixer or troll....also possible).

I like POE. I'm not leaving (unless Loot 2.0 comes here.)

If we're on the same page or close up to this point. Stop reading. Next, I will attempt the insane challenging of proposing fixes.

Idea 1: sell us a real money tab where items we place for sale sell for the price we set, provided we're online. Optionally, make the price per item 1 chaos or less if you're really concerned with enabling your players to get good gear. (To be clear, I want GGG to sell us the tab for real money, and player to player trade would remain in game orbs only.)

Idea 2: create trade guilds where players can post items for sale and lose a portion of the profits to the NPC manning the pool of goods. Restrict players to only be able to belong to one trade guild, and further restrict it so players need a player invite. Can this be abused, you betcha. All the same, buyers don't spend 30 minutes trying to chase down sellers.

Idea 3: convert $trade to a real time market where buyers can open a trade window with sellers if they see an item they want. For example, I might find a Tabula Rasa in a map. Without leaving the map, I post it in trade for some price. Without having to leave the map, I can trade with players if we come to terms.

I don't care if none of these ideas is "good". The point is that we need to admit that this manifesto was out dated when it was written and there is a real problem with trade that makes most players save up their time to play trading for a time when they really cannot continue unless they trade. It's painful often enough that I would rather buy Zana maps then buy maps from players for cheaper. (I don't often have this issue with 6ex items, just items worth less than 10c.)

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Grendahl wrote:

Idea 2: create trade guilds where players can post items for sale and lose a portion of the profits to the NPC manning the pool of goods.

I think the main problem here is: how much is for example 5% of 1c?

almost everything u can read in the first post will be changed in the near future. just dont be such lovers who do not understand how things are going when someone is bought by a big player.

small indie company btw xD

EDIT: the "comfortability" changes, which are comming constantly, will reach the "trading" part of the game in near future. trust me. just quit the game until they finally manage to make the trading "non-cancerous".