Labyrinth test - one year later

First time I tested the lab is almost one year ago:
https://www.pathofexile.com/forum/view-thread/1604398

One year later, stronger and more experienced, I give the lab another try.

Test conditions
Spoiler


- Level 91 slayer with cleave attack
- Complete satisfying T15 maps (higher not tested yet)
- DPS (town):______________68 k (tool-tip does not take into account bleeding, poison etc.)
- DPS (path of building):__~ 3 mio. (effectiv DPS: takes everything into account)
- 7.9k HP
- Solo play
- Movement: Brightbeak + Prismatic Eclipse(3G), gem: Leap slam (0,37 s attack time)
- Playtime: more than 10 h



Result
Spoiler

- I used my roughtly 20 "Offering to the Goddess" for uber-lab. I succeeded 5 times.

- Currently "Offering to the Goddess" is 5c - 7c worth in standard league. In average my loot does not had this value.

- On merc lab I was lucky to get a run-through-friendly layout one day. On this day I did most of my item enchantments. The fastest run was about 6 min. and the longest run about 10 min.

- Enchantments are not very promising at all. There are 388 possible enchantments for the helmet. So the chance to get the enchantment I am looking for is 0.3 % and this calculation does not take into account that the same enchantmens can appear multiple times which happens as well. From my opinion the boots have the best balance in term of getting something which nocticeably support your build.

- Most of the time I died due to the 'deathzones' or due to Izaro's one or two shots.

- Overall it is better to pay for the carry on mercyless and espacially on uber lab rather than to do it by your own. Instead of doing lab runs farm your currency and experience on the atlas. This makes much more sense.



Deathzone
Spoiler


In the following figure


http://imgur.com/OrbeRGJ.jpg

we see what I call the 'deathzone'. Since the rooms are very dark and you are not able to zoom out, you do not know, what is expecting you in the next corner. Once you overcome half of the path you do not want to turn around.

You have to pass this long way, filled with a deadly combination of trials like trials of crippling grief, of piercing truth and uber trials, to enter the next room. There is no other way. Until you reach the pedestral, you loose life within the green cycles whenever you use a movement skill, which most of the time you do in the lab. A hugh downside for close combat characters. If you are unlucky, which tend to happen on such a long path, filled nonstoply with these dangereous trials, the spikes hits you right in the position, so the wheels hits you as well. While you are stucked you can not escape and you get a lot of trap damage.

I got 2 flasks which can replenish my life by 1.4k instantly. Since i got almost 8k HP this is not much but best i can get, since % instant life regeneration flasks are undesirable in the game.

These deathzones are ment to see you death and most likely in the second or third last room, probably to awake the full frustration potential - who knows.



Some critisism
Spoiler

Please do not understand the critism as I am not appreciating all your work. Seriously you do a good job. However there is still space for improvements:


- I loose an insanly amount of experience in uber-lab (T8), since I am level 91 and die so often even with my high end equipment
If I do manage to open the chests in uber-lab, I do not get a similar loot value compared to "Offering to the godesss" value in standard league. Since my stash is very limited it is not worth to keep these very low level items hoping to trade them.

- I am able to do deathless T15 content but I die almost everytime, even with 7.9k life, in T8 uber-lab maps. How does this fit together?

- you can not expect the players to know all Izaro phases and their fight consequences (CHARGE DISRUPTORS, FONTS etc.).

- In high-end gameplay everything goes really fast and then you have to watch how slowly Izaro is always arising. It feels like you are waiting for ages for him. This happens three times. Why do I have to wait this long? The same when I want to leave the room.

- Once Izaro arives, he smashes me with his first attack and I am instantly dead. 7.9k life, fortify, armor based character, basalt flask and I am still instantly dead on a level 75 map. How does this fit together? There are not many other options to get more life. Seriously I do not care which phase mechanic causes this but it does not feel balanced to me.

- As soon Izaro looses 1/3 of his life in the first stage he is still attacking me? Why? I can not make him loose life but he can kill me? The same happens on the second stage. What is the intention behind it? Imagine shaper could do this?

- Camera rotation issue: There are corners where i can not see the trap because of the wall and the static camera angle. Why not creating larger rooms so this does not happen?

- Experienced a bug where I got damaged on fully stoned stairs.

- The lab currently favors whirling blades and leap slam and probably blink arrow as movement skills. Lightning warp is because of its delay not an option. Since the movement skill is a crucial part for lab the movement quality should be on an equal level unindepent of the main hand weapon.

- Why does the labyrinth has its labyrinth name? I never have the feeling to be in a labyrinth. One day I entered a hideout which was designed as a labyrinth. I almost feeled lost until someone guided me through it to the map device. This was funny.

- I am not satisfied with the current leech state. My 43 % maximum life leech rate, which is max., can not compete with vaal pact. If the intention is to have every character vaal pact you could put all classes starting over there?

- Lab favoures non-close-combat builds

- most difficult and dangereous rooms are in the last section rather than in the first section

- before I did the test I got the ascendency points on merciless and uber-lab by paying someone to carry me through. And after my test I will handle it the same. I am not sure if GGG indended to do so, since the game gets a pay-to-win character, but I do not see any other option.

- I guess there is no other part of the game which is so highly discussed like the lab issue in POE. I think, that the community deserves to know how the average opinion is. Share some statistic data about the lab. How often does people do lab runs on which difficulty. How often do they die in average there? Make a survey, how people like the labyrinth, e.g. when they log in or on any other internet page. Is most of the feedback to the lab from individual persons or does this represent most of the user's opinion?

- I do not want to read i got the wrong character or wrong skill gem. Because that is the way I want to play the character. However the truth is, there are lab-friendly builds. But seriously this is not my fault.

- I highly disklike the idea of dealy events. There are layout where you do lab runs and there are days where you do not do the lab runs otherwise you most likely will die or it takes too much time to get the 3 keys. You are looking for comments like:

"The day i waited for. Almost zero traps, locker and argus main path. Only golden door sucks."

- I dislike the idea to click on switches to open / close multiple doors. There is no other place in POE where you have to do this.

- for all mantioned reasons the frustration potentinal is so high in the lab. I prefer to die in a rare T15 dark forest map by boss rather than to be killed by traps in the last room of the lab. And I still will get there more XP and more valuable loot compared to the lab.



Solutions
Spoiler


- Give the player more options. I highly like the idea of this layout.



Either the payer takes the golden door part or the other two rooms. Why not expanding the idea and offering the player three different boss fights in the final stage. I want more of this.

- focus more on one point:
If you want to make my decisionmaking in boss fights affecting the next boss fights do this.
If you want to have more daily events, do this.
If you want to test the movement skills and flask management of characters by traps focus on this.
But do not mix everything up. First each part for itself has to work. As soon as this is successful you can try to combine it again, presuming most community member will enjoy it.

- to reduce the waiting time in Izaro fights, start the fight as soon the player hits Izaro for the first time.

- Introduce flasks which replenish 50 % of hp instantly. For my char it would be about 4000 hp.

- reduce the number of possible enchantments on the helmet by half

- reduce the number of rooms by 1 or 2

- instead of items I prefer more currency loot from the chests.



Since time is a very rare ressource I hope you can find something useful in this contribution.

For more feedback watch out for other community members:
Winterfury, WiseGuard, WizBlizz1994, winterlude, Regulator and many more
Last bumped on May 1, 2017, 6:10:55 PM
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Thank you for the thoughtful post.

You make many good points. The ones that are also high on my list of things that should be fixed.

A) Labyrinth has horrible visibility problems.
B) The inset map is almost useless in the Labyrinth, trap areas vs. safe areas should be clearly marked etc.
C) The levers that have to be activated/deactivated are extra stupid. This is supposed to be an ARPG not a puzzle game. If I wanted to play a puzzle game I would start up a puzzle game not PoE.
D) I agree that the daily race probably does more damage than good because GGG might hesitate to fix some of the problems with the Labyrinth because it could detract from the daily race.
Over 430 threads discussing labyrinth problems with over 1040 posters in support (thread # 1702621) Thank you all! GGG will implement a different method for ascension in PoE2. Retired!
"
Turtledove wrote:
The daily race probably does more damage than good because GGG might hesitate to fix some of the problems with the Labyrinth because it could detract from the daily race.


Yes, and allow me to add that randomization would make that race more appealing to a significantly larger portion of players, because the amount of skill required to win, while still quite high, would not be that held by a small handful of players.
Wash your hands, Exile!
What I really don't understand is why you paid for a merc lab carry. Uber, I agree but merc isn't that bad. You reached level 90 so obviously you're a significantly better player than me, but even I can handle merc lab most days ...

I agree with almost all of what you're saying except for one thing. You say that players should not be expected to know the mechanisms. No way; I think it's fair for the player to know all mechanisms for Izaro more or less. Personally, I like to do my normal-merc labs myself because I know it's easily achievable. Uber, I pay for a carry. However, I've examined the value of even paying for an uber lab carry and came to the following conclusion: If one ex is a lot to you, just sell the offerings for chaos. If you can earn on average one or 2 ex pretty easily, spend your offerings. If you're poor, there's really not much more you can get out of it.

Farming merc lab for enchants isn't that bad honestly. In my opinion, at least you can not worry about random dcs that cost you your offering, no fonts that may kill you. Worst case you die and lose 10% exp.

I completely agree with the head enchant comment, but when i created a thread about that, people simply said it wasn't mandatory. I think a better solution for the helm enchant system is to either generalize the enchants, roll a roulette so to speak that lands on a skill. Then the player would be able to choose a specified option for that skill. That way it at least makes it much more fair to get a decent helm enchant. Another option I suggested was to be able to pay a price to reuse the altar. Last option is to make head enchants detachable for a price.
this feedback is a prime example of 'lack of skill makes content hard'

there are no 'like or dislike' described there, but simply difficulties and difficulty related issues

if you managed to complete 5 out of 20 with a 7.9k hp AR based character then i already can see the reasosns but oh well

General observation:
- you say 'close range characters have it harder in the lab' but fail to provide any evidence in support. why do you claim that? because if anything melee/life builds have it easier with Izaro (as AR/EV actually does something vs him)

- with ~8k life your life regen should pull you trough anything. no need to use flasks at all with this pool/regen

- you say that there are some non-lab-friendly builds. i call bollocks. there are some bad glasscannony builds that should not be allowed to be played at all. but any build that does focused effort on not sucking can and will complete uber lab no problem.
if you have a build that cannot beat it no matter what, list it


Izaro:
- why do you think getting into the game without understanding what these 'mechanics' do is a wise idea? by now every player who plays this game even a bit knows exactly what these mechanics are. if they do not know if from personal experience, then can read this stuff up.
lack of knowledge about Izaro phases, mechanics and do's and dont's is inexcuseable. this is a l2p issue

- getting one shot from 7.9k hp by Izaro (even uber izaro) is.. unlikely. unless you wear Abyssus and play a Berserked and Izaro has Essences + Gargoyles/Charges AND you happen to stand in 'damage amplifier' field

i do not know what happened there but yesterday there was a Charges day and i managed to farm him (10+ runs) with 4.9k HP without any problems (no, i do not have vaal pact). Charges' most important boni for him are speed and damage resistance not the damage.


Traps

- i agree some parts are just too dark. POE gfx isnt the most clear one out there and when all these colors mix together it might be difficult to see whats going on. wouldnt mind turning lights on.

but then you have your experience and understanding of these trap sections. after 2 or 3 encounter you should know it. gauntlets do not change. one type is always this and this. it can be memorized or it can be done slowly. all trap layouts can be bypassed without a single point of damage taken


- movement skills. if you think that lab promotes whirling blades then i know you have very little experience. leap slam/lightning warp and blink arrows are THE skills to use - because these allow you to jump gaps/ledges.

- why do you insist on using a movement skill when affected by 'do not use movement skills' totem? players who can do uber lab 10/10 can do that. you are 'not there yet'. you are not skilled enough to speed trough it. do it the normal way and as you improve you can try and buzz trough it.

your character being lvl91 means nothing because lab tests YOU. not your character. Izaro is there to test your build. the lab (traps/layout) test YOU. your patience, your spatial orientation, your ability to plan ahead, your ability to sustain yourself

you zapping trough T15 means nothing - most players can do that because T15 are so damn easy


Enchants:

- this is economy stimulating mechanic (i do not like it already) but then we have ES meta so everything peoeple enchant is Hubris, Devoto and sometimes random helmets they were using and now are selling for an upgrade. .3% chance is bad enough. but ES meta and people not even touching life based items suck massively.

entire enchant system is terribad tbh (helmets). gloves/boots are 'ok' but it doesnt make them any good.


Loots/Rewards:
- price of the offering is 5-6c because this is the average gain from these if you complete 10/10 of them.
if you die 75% of the time it is rather obvious that you wont make a bank..

btw - if you want to have your character killed in the lab assign 'auto attack' to 'left click'. oh, you have done that already.. remove it. NEVER EVER use left click for anything that isnt 'move'. it will get you killed.


"
sidtherat wrote:

entire enchant system is terribad tbh (helmets). gloves/boots are 'ok' but it doesnt make them any good.

I hate gloves, too. Still have to look up every single glove enchant in poewiki, because the game doesn't care to explain what a "commandment" is or what of "light" does...

"
Loots/Rewards:
- price of the offering is 5-6c because this is the average gain from these if you complete 10/10 of them.
if you die 75% of the time it is rather obvious that you wont make a bank..

You make way more profit than 5-6c on average.
The price is lower than the profit, because you also need to run the Lab, which can be be considered "work".
3.5 build: https://www.pathofexile.com/forum/view-thread/2299519
"
Peterlerock wrote:

I hate gloves, too. Still have to look up every single glove enchant in poewiki, because the game doesn't care to explain what a "commandment" is or what of "light" does...


Er...?

Spoiler
Need game info? Check out the Wiki at: https://www.poewiki.net/

Contact support@grindinggear.com for account issues. Check out How to Report Bugs + Post Images at: https://www.pathofexile.com/forum/view-thread/18347
"
- getting one shot from 7.9k hp by Izaro (even uber izaro) is.. unlikely. unless you wear Abyssus and play a Berserked and Izaro has Essences + Gargoyles/Charges AND you happen to stand in 'damage amplifier' field


5.5k HP, Abyssus, Vaal Pact (no life regen). I managed to kill Izaro fully buffed with Conduits. Any and every charge-type attack would one shot me. Yet, with lower attack speed I managed to kill him. How? I dunno lol.
Character: TheWiseElemental, Raider, currently level 95. (I'm using Cleave to not kill myself on reflect, for heavy boss fighting I'm using Ice Crash)

About ranged characters having it harder - it is true to a degree. It comes all to the fact there is no area in which you can rest for a while (be it recharge ES and whatnot). Arena could be a little bigger.

You character seems to be fine (altho, for Disfavor and Hatred the deeps seems to be an a low-end). I think the main problem here is tilting and lack of practice. Same goes for traps - in general, if you run Lab long enough, you will remember most of the trap layouts. You don't figure it out on the fly, but you know what to do from the very start.

Dedicated Lab running characters (which usually have good physical mitigation, be it armor or other sources - preferably other sources) can quite literally jump through traps like they don't exist. And quite frankly, Slayer is the most popular Lab running class...

"
Lightning warp is because of its delay not an option




Of course it is. You just need to get rid of that delay. :@

So yeah, one year later, you still need more practice. :P

Ps. You should try using Cleave threshold jewel. :P Helps with maintaining Fortify a lot.
Real knowledge is to know the extent of one's ignorance.
Ignorance more frequently begets confidence than does knowledge.
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Last edited by Perq#4049 on Apr 27, 2017, 2:01:51 AM
Yes, I know that. But the description is sometimes a bit vague.

Maybe it's just me, but I can find very little info what glove enchants are considered good or bad, what they do exactly, what they are worth on the market (do they even have a "price tag"?), ...?

Spiked gloves exist, so I can just ignore that stuff. Love my spiked gloves. ;-)
3.5 build: https://www.pathofexile.com/forum/view-thread/2299519
I'll take good gloves enchant over sad 10-20% increased X damage any day. :P It makes little difference (unless double dip ofc, derp) compared to some glove enchants. :V
Real knowledge is to know the extent of one's ignorance.
Ignorance more frequently begets confidence than does knowledge.
https://joeduncan123.imgur.com
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