[3.2] 5 Flavors of Golems - Uber Elder and EVERY boss dead

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Voidlesss wrote:

Hello, So i am having some slight issues with this build, re-rolled my poet's pen elementalist to the hexagolem tri-curse build you have, so i can run 3 curses and my diso fine with the level 4 enlighten but then i physically have no mana to re-cast flame golems, i have 85 mana remaning after all the curses and aura are activated but flame golems with that chest line-up cost 295 mana per cast, am i missing something?

If you coudl contact me in game i would be very grateful (rarely use forum) IGN: CursingVoid

I also dont have enough mana to recast Flame golems. I turn off 1 curse and summon them and they stay. They basically should never die. Only boss that wrecked my golems was vaal temple cycloner because bleed stacking (I recommend making animate guardian bleed immune just in case, buying items for him sucks when he dies). Lesser golems like Ice can die occasionaly (they have also much less life than others) but they cost low mana because they have no links so summoning them is no problem.

Thanks for the guide.

Using the life / mom version but with Shroud of the Lightless. Turned the game into jogging simulator.

With 5 Abyss jewels and an Essence amulet my golems have 80% increased movement speed and Convocation is almost not needed at all while Femunus' Weave slows enemies by 30% and increases damage by a lot. I basically quicksilver threw T15 maps, Trials, Uber Lab, Red Guardians / Elder are a walk in the park. Chisel, Alc and go - the only mod that I avoid is no regen ( Arcane Chemestry's reduced flask charges used for the win ).

I was really unsure if I should commit to the build because I did not want to depend on movement speed crafted rings - turns out using Shroud of the Lightless, Bubonic Trail and Darkness Enthroned completely avoids the problem with movement speed jewels while also providing great amounts of life and mana.

I also was unsure if I should ascend to Beacon of Ruin or Paragon of Calamity because I wasnt sure if the shocking would be reliable. It turned out that shocks are absolutely reliable - I use a Arc Spell totem which comes with shock chance and effectiveness as a bonus.

Working my way up to Uber Elder for now - never approached endgame bosses, but with this build anything else is just a running simulator ^^.

Character is ClayElder, 6k life, 2k mom, 10%+ life and mana regen, 60k+ Shaper damage per golem plus 30% more with shocks and 80% minion movement speed.

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AdFinitum wrote:

Thanks for the guide.

Using the life / mom version but with Shroud of the Lightless. Turned the game into jogging simulator.

With 5 Abyss jewels and an Essence amulet my golems have 80% increased movement speed and Convocation is almost not needed at all while Femunus' Weave slows enemies by 30% and increases damage by a lot. I basically quicksilver threw T15 maps, Trials, Uber Lab, Red Guardians / Elder are a walk in the park. Chisel, Alc and go - the only mod that I avoid is no regen ( Arcane Chemestry's reduced flask charges used for the win ).

I was really unsure if I should commit to the build because I did not want to depend on movement speed crafted rings - turns out using Shroud of the Lightless, Bubonic Trail and Darkness Enthroned completely avoids the problem with movement speed jewels while also providing great amounts of life and mana.

I also was unsure if I should ascend to Beacon of Ruin or Paragon of Calamity because I wasnt sure if the shocking would be reliable. It turned out that shocks are absolutely reliable - I use a Arc Spell totem which comes with shock chance and effectiveness as a bonus.

Working my way up to Uber Elder for now - never approached endgame bosses, but with this build anything else is just a running simulator ^^.

Character is ClayElder, 6k life, 2k mom, 10%+ life and mana regen, 60k+ Shaper damage per golem plus 30% more with shocks and 80% minion movement speed.

Cool, I haven't really fiddled with the new league uniques much but the spider aspect seems great. Smart way to use the abyss uniques as well to get some abyss jewels rolling. Uber elder is very possible, I've farmed him about 20 times already this league and my kills now are mostly deathless as well

Hello I like the outline of this build and thinking about trying it but had a few questions I was wondering if someone could answer for me

1. Liege of the primordial says "25% increased effect of buffs granted by your golems for each summoned Golem". Does this mean 7x25% = 175% increased effect of golem buffs because thats how the wording looks to me and would make stone golems regen quite effective or is it just each separate buffs gets 25% increased effect.

2. The title says 5 flavours of golems but your character seemed to be Flame, Ice, Lightning and Stone. I assume this is because 4 or 3 different types seems to be more efficient and this seems to match my math but I'm wondering why Ice and Lightning golem was chosen over chaos.

They have no damage supports and it seems to me that the physical damage reduction from chaos is more valuable then freeze or shock immunity since that is just a flask affix. Am I missing something about what those golems do? Do people have preferences about which support golems to run?

3. This build goes really heavy on the Primordial harmony jewels which makes sense since they are 80% increased damage with 4 golems but after getting about 8 of them plus the Elemancer node it seems the build gets plenty of %increased damage and could use some attack/cast speed

I edited my path of building to correctly calculate shock and elemancer and while using 8 Harmony jewels it estimated swapping one into a 20% cast speed Primordial Eminence gives 5.7% more damage. This makes sense mathematically but does not calculate the "reduced skill cooldown" on the harmonies. How much damage do you think this stat is worth? Does it have diminishing returns?

EDIT: I found another post claiming that getting 5-6 Harmonies reduces their cooldown to 2 seconds which is the animation time so further is not needed. Although more cast speed would increase the animation time so there may be a balance between the 2 and not sure how reliable that is

4. Do you have an opinion on cutting a jewel socket to get Necromantic Aegis?

Victario's charity
- 494,828 flame golem total summed dps
- 7 Harmony jewels

Duel Clay shaper
- 506,600 flame golem total summed dps
- 6 Harmony Jewels, 2 Eminence (for better dps)

Numbers seem pretty similar even losing a golem and it just meant moving around some things in the tree. Frenzy with charity gives +15% minion movement speed but an extra golem probably takes more hits. Double clayshaper also had about 100 extra mana for MOM but with charity you could use shield charge

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1. Liege of the primordial says "25% increased effect of buffs granted by your golems for each summoned Golem". Does this mean 7x25% = 175% increased effect of golem buffs because thats how the wording looks to me and would make stone golems regen quite effective or is it just each separate buffs gets 25% increased effect.

This seems to be per unique golem type

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2. The title says 5 flavours of golems but your character seemed to be Flame, Ice, Lightning and Stone. I assume this is because 4 or 3 different types seems to be more efficient and this seems to match my math but I'm wondering why Ice and Lightning golem was chosen over chaos.

The title is because it used to be a collection of many different golem builds, although some of them aren't very viable anymore with the extreme poison nerfs. I don't want to rename the guide now though, but only the elementalist version is updated.

Ice and Lightning are simply immortal which is very helpful. Stone golem is super strong but sometimes he still dies on uber elder. Having to resummon more than one type of golem would be hella annoying. Plus you also become immune to their respective ailmments so no need for a shocking or freezing flask.

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3. This build goes really heavy on the Primordial harmony jewels which makes sense since they are 80% increased damage with 4 golems but after getting about 8 of them plus the Elemancer node it seems the build gets plenty of %increased damage and could use some attack/cast speed

You could add in a bit of primordial eminence and it will likely provide PoB damage increases but I am unsure of it in practise. It's definitely not set in stone but each jewel is worth 80% damage or 20% cast speed

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I edited my path of building to correctly calculate shock and elemancer and while using 8 Harmony jewels it estimated swapping one into a 20% cast speed Primordial Eminence gives 5.7% more damage. This makes sense mathematically but does not calculate the "reduced skill cooldown" on the harmonies. How much damage do you think this stat is worth? Does it have diminishing returns?

EDIT: I found another post claiming that getting 5-6 Harmonies reduces their cooldown to 2 seconds which is the animation time so further is not needed. Although more cast speed would increase the animation time so there may be a balance between the 2 and not sure how reliable that is

The important part of the harmonies is the golem damage. I'm not surprised that we achieve a point where the other two points of the jewel don't really do anything, which is why I don't focus on them a lot.

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4. Do you have an opinion on cutting a jewel socket to get Necromantic Aegis?

I don't like running with a shield except when mapping for shield charge. For bosses I want to have 7 golems as I just want the maximum possible damage and the stone golem gives me a lot of survivability vs uber elder's degens

I don't level the character any more but when I map I use this


If your goal is to get up to level 100 I'd probably swap things around a bit, for sure use shield charge and maybe get an essence worm with haste and use some abyss uniques with minion speed jewels!

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allana wrote:

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WaffleT wrote:

I edited my path of building to correctly calculate shock and elemancer and while using 8 Harmony jewels it estimated swapping one into a 20% cast speed Primordial Eminence gives 5.7% more damage. This makes sense mathematically but does not calculate the "reduced skill cooldown" on the harmonies. How much damage do you think this stat is worth? Does it have diminishing returns?

EDIT: I found another post claiming that getting 5-6 Harmonies reduces their cooldown to 2 seconds which is the animation time so further is not needed. Although more cast speed would increase the animation time so there may be a balance between the 2 and not sure how reliable that is

The important part of the harmonies is the golem damage. I'm not surprised that we achieve a point where the other two points of the jewel don't really do anything, which is why I don't focus on them a lot.

The cooldown stats are both important. For Flame Golems in particular, I'd say they're just as if not more important than the IncDmg% stat. It just happens to be that Spell Echo provides a lot of headroom to add cooldown and players want lots of Harmony anyway for the regen bonus, so a lot of people don't really notice how critical a role cooldown plays for spell-based golems.

Do you (WaffleT) have a link to the post? I'm more than a little doubtful of the claim. First, "needed" is a fairly subjective term. I'd say 5-6 is a decent amount to have, but it's not necessarily the optimal amount.

What we should be looking for is the exact point where Harmony cooldown maxes out your available cast speed. In this specific case and from a practical standpoint, we want to know how much Harmony does it take before the firing rate of a Flame Golem linked to Spell Echo stops increasing (since no spell-based golem builds run without Echo). I'm quite certain that point isn't 5 or 6. I also did some rough testing a while back and I'd say with Echo only, you need around 10x Harmony before the cooldown stats get to a point where they "don't really do anything". If you run other sources of minion cast speed (Flesh Offering, Victario's, etc.), then that 10x figure increases. Two conclusions you can draw from this:

① 8-10x Harmony is probably what you want to aim for in terms cooldown vs. cast speed, as well as build practicality (significant EHP sacrifices need to be made to reach 14, 15x Harmony or more).

② Victario's + Necromantic Aegis (as popular as it's become), might be a waste of time and passive points. If you take a look at link above, you'll see a setup with Spell Echo and a setup with Spell Echo+Faster Casting. At 9x Harmony, both setups provide almost the same output, indicating that Faster Casting isn't really doing anything (FC provides approximately the same boost as 3x Frenzy Charges for mobs/pets). (Warning: This is just a single test run and I've been too lazy to re-do/confirm it, so take my advice with a grain of salt. I've been trying to give away Starforge+Disfavour+currency for anybody willing to help test, but nobody seems to be interested.)

Note that even though adding cast speed past your cooldown cap isn't optimal, it's not necessarily "wasted". For Flame Golems, their two best moves are both bound by cooldown, but they do have a (weaker) move, Immolate, that is based purely on cast speed. So there's at least some small benefit there. For Lightning Golems, you can still benefit from extra cast speed even with a cooldown bottleneck, since only the Storm Orb itself is cooldown-based, while the mini-Arc part and the Galvanic Bolt projectiles are pure cast speed I believe. Ice and Stone Golems' Default Attacks are also free from cooldown limits and can pack an okay punch if built correctly

Also another note: Currently both cooldown stats help your Golems' abilities. This is a bug according to GGG's Mark that may be addressed in the future (there's another link within the link above that discusses it if you're curious). This is potentially a massive nerf. So stay tuned...

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4. Do you have an opinion on cutting a jewel socket to get Necromantic Aegis?

I don't like running with a shield except when mapping for shield charge. For bosses I want to have 7 golems as I just want the maximum possible damage and the stone golem gives me a lot of survivability vs uber elder's degens

Just my opinion, but if you (WaffleT) are willing to path to Necromantic Aegis, then you should probably play Hybrid, not Life/MOM. Doing so means it only costs you an extra 2-ish passive points. With efficient pathing, Hybrid will give more EHP and/or more jewels slots than Life/MOM anyway.

Question. If you (allana) arn't interested in using Necromantic Aegis/Frenzy Charges, wouldn't Leap Slam be better? For a build that doesn't stack lots of MS, Leap and Charge both provide about the same velocity (assuming Faster Attacks linked). Only real difference is LS can go over gaps, pebbles, and other obstructions (while allowing you to maintain 7 golems also).

@allana thanks for responding

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mika2salo wrote:

Second line lowers Golems internal skills cooldown. Golems "Magma Ball" skill has 6 second cooldown and 5-6x Harmonies with 14-15% "Golems have increased Cooldown Recovery Speed" lower the cooldown to around 2 second which is the length of casting animation needed for Golems to complete casting their orbs. This lets Golems cast new orb as soon as earlier cast is finished

This is the line from the popular flame golem 101 guide. It seemed reasonable to me that the cooldown recovery would hit a point where the cooldown was finished before they finished their casting animation. Once that point is reached then any additional cooldown recovery wouldn't be doing anything. The only question then is at what point do you hit that cap

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tomatopotato wrote:

I'm quite certain that point isn't 5 or 6. I also did some rough testing a while back and I'd say with Echo only, you need around 10x Harmony before the cooldown stats get to a point where they "don't really do anything". If you run other sources of minion cast speed (Flesh Offering, Victario's, etc.), then that 10x figure increases. Two conclusions you can draw from this:

① 8-10x Harmony is probably what you want to aim for in terms cooldown vs. cast speed, as well as build practicality (significant EHP sacrifices need to be made to reach 14, 15x Harmony or more).

Thank you for this data and perspective, figuring out the optimal balance between cast speed and cooldown recovery was my goal

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tomatopotato wrote:

If you take a look at link above, you'll see a setup with Spell Echo and a setup with Spell Echo+Faster Casting. At 9x Harmony, both setups provide almost the same output, indicating that Faster Casting isn't really doing anything

This is the most alarming part. This indicates that cast speed is providing next to no actual benefit despite giving more theoretical DPS. This would certainly mean that both Victarios charity and Eminence jewels are not worth using

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tomatopotato wrote:

Also another note: Currently both cooldown stats help your Golems' abilities. This is a bug according to GGG's Mark that may be addressed in the future (there's another link within the link above that discusses it if you're curious). This is potentially a massive nerf. So stay tuned

I was aware of this but there didn't seem to be an urgency and with a change that large it may involve tweaking of the numbers when they do fix it. Until they actually change anything I'm going to work with how it works now. Since everyones testing has been done with the bugged version it doesn't really matter that much for people who did in game testing and not mathing it out themselves

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tomatopotato wrote:

Just my opinion, but if you (WaffleT) are willing to path to Necromantic Aegis, then you should probably play Hybrid, not Life/MOM. Doing so means it only costs you an extra 2-ish passive points. With efficient pathing, Hybrid will give more EHP and/or more jewels slots than Life/MOM anyway.

I'm resistant on going hybrid as running ES without a good way to regenerate it can get annoying while as mana and life regen starts ticking as soon as you take any hit.

The skill tree that Allana links doesn't have mana nodes but their beastery character had some mana nodes and in my theorycrafting many mana nodes are more efficient then life ones so I made some changes for greater EHP and mana regen. The path to get Aegis turned out pretty point efficient because I could take the mana regen path out of witch instead of the useless spell damage on the left and take Dreamer which is really good mana per point

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...lower the cooldown to around 2 second which is the length of casting animation needed for Golems to complete casting their orbs. This lets Golems cast new orb as soon as earlier cast is finished...

Ehh... unfortunately, this gives the impression that casting animation has a static length.

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WaffleT wrote:

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tomatopotato wrote:

Just my opinion, but if you (WaffleT) are willing to path to Necromantic Aegis, then you should probably play Hybrid, not Life/MOM. Doing so means it only costs you an extra 2-ish passive points. With efficient pathing, Hybrid will give more EHP and/or more jewels slots than Life/MOM anyway.

I'm resistant on going hybrid as running ES without a good way to regenerate it can get annoying while as mana and life regen starts ticking as soon as you take any hit.

I'm not sure if it meets your requirements, but with ZO and Stone Golem (in combination with a ~7000 ES pool) you can regen close to 500 ES/s. Faster start of ES recharge on your rings (Leo craft) can also cut the wait time down from 2s to ~1.4s.

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The skill tree that Allana links doesn't have mana nodes but their beastery character had some mana nodes and in my theorycrafting many mana nodes are more efficient then life ones so I made some changes for greater EHP and mana regen. The path to get Aegis turned out pretty point efficient because I could take the mana regen path out of witch instead of the useless spell damage on the left and take Dreamer which is really good mana per point

You pathed to Dreamer and NA via Deep Wisdom and connected to the left side of the tree via Foresight? It sounds like a Hybrid tree already, at least partially :P

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tomatopotato wrote:

Ehh... unfortunately, this gives the impression that casting animation has a static length.

I don't think it was saying that 2 seconds is the static length but I thought it was describing the length for their character. That build uses Charity and Necromancer cast speed so the animation length should already have more cast speed then this style of elemancer.

Its more likely they just didn't test the shots per second as you did. Perhaps its not so noticeable in play when they do other moves? I haven't not tested myself just planning

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tomatopotato wrote:

You pathed to Dreamer and NA via Deep Wisdom and connected to the left side of the tree via Foresight? It sounds like a Hybrid tree already, at least partially :P

Didn't path through forsight but the travel nodes to the right. Build can use dex node and Int gives mana so for a mom character its not bad. I did consider through foresight but its pretty useless unless you really start gearing in that direction.

https://pastebin.com/0wP66duh

Was the general plan. Might be dropping the right wing now though if the charity doesn't actually give better damage like it does on paper. Frenzies and Harrier was the only reason I thought that I could get enough attack speed to make a movement skill worth using though

Its based off the budget gear that allana had in beastery so it has room to gain better life/mana gear and tidy up some tree stuff. I did look at your build too and it looks good but I've generally found it starts to get expensive getting resistances and good ES and good life on every item. Plus big ticket items like shavs and Presence of Chayula. Life/Mom seems easier to self gear

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WaffleT wrote:

Didn't path through forsight but the travel nodes to the right. Build can use dex node and Int gives mana so for a mom character its not bad. I did consider through foresight but its pretty useless unless you really start gearing in that direction.

https://pastebin.com/0wP66duh

Was the general plan. Might be dropping the right wing now though if the charity doesn't actually give better damage like it does on paper. Frenzies and Harrier was the only reason I thought that I could get enough attack speed to make a movement skill worth using though

Hmm... setting Frenzies aside for a moment, your tree looks like it might have too much Mana? 2984 Mana ÷ 30% MoM is enough to cover a Life pool of ~9950 in the event of a one-shot, but your tree shows 6758. Was your intent to have enough Mana buffer in case something burst you down to low health and you slammed 4 or so insta-heal flasks just in time? If not, you can probably get away with a fewer mana nodes and grab 1-2 nearby Jewel slots.

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Its based off the budget gear that allana had in beastery so it has room to gain better life/mana gear and tidy up some tree stuff. I did look at your build too and it looks good but I've generally found it starts to get expensive getting resistances and good ES and good life on every item. Plus big ticket items like shavs and Presence of Chayula. Life/Mom seems easier to self gear

Shav's and Presence are just for HC security. For SC, you could use a rare equipment in pretty much every slot and actually come out with more EHP than the Shav's/Presence version (12K+ w/ 10 sockets). Pretty sure that would be cheaper than Kaom's, regardless of league. And with that many slots filled with rare equipment, there would be very little (price) pressure in terms of filling resists past Ele Weakness overcap.