Skill Tree Proposals for 3.0 [updated 12/13/2016]

Skill Tree Proposals for 3.0

Update: Adjusted the Witch starting area.
Inner circle now has 13 points, as all other classes with the current proposal to remove nodes. The problem here was that the design needed to be adjusted because of the size and stretch of the connections. I shrunk the size of the inner circle slightly, and tried to keep the same style of layout, while maintaining a 13 point area. I changed the look of the large elemental circle to be vertical to adjust to where the exiting node is. I've also adjusted the exits from the Energy shield or Life+Mana circles respectively.

TLDR?: If you think this is too long then this isn't the thread for you.
However I will put all the screen shots up top for easy access, there are a lot of them.
Please read over the thread as to why the way some changes were made.

Updated Witch Starting Area
Current 2.4 Scion Tree | Current 2.4 Scion Tree + Jewel Ranges
Scion Proposal Ver 1 | Scion Proposal Ver 1 + Jewel Ranges
Scion Ver 1 with Numerical Values
Entire Tree Proposal Updated 12/13/2016(warning, 6mb)

For the Scion section, I will abbreviate:
Path of the [Warrior/Hunter/Savant] to Path of the [WHS].

I also want to preface that I will not be considering Jewel ranges outside the Scion area, simply because the number of combinations and things to account for is outside the scope of my proposal.

I will also not be considering removing pathing because it looks unpractical or unaesthetic, such as some shadow areas. I prefer functionality over consideration for looks.
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Under consideration for longer rework time, I'm willing to accept changes hopefully no later than the 3.0 release.

After realizing that it takes a long time to do a rework, and that GGG currently has their hands full, I'm suggesting the proposal for 3.0 release.
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I expected to see something change for the passive tree once Atlas of Worlds was launched.
Could not have been more disappointed.
Literally nothing changed outside of 1-5 value tweaks for Atlas launch.

So why make these proposals?

1. Efficiency.
2. Standardize the tree and make it more consistent overall.
3. Buff areas that I feel are extremely lacking. (You will notice changes I propose for adding circles.)
4. Scion needs an inner-tree rework.

We had Templar rework, Marauder, Shadow, Witch, Duelist, Ranger to an extent, and now it's high time we got a Scion rework.

The Scion has changed very little from the time of release of 1.0 until this date. I have been playing since day one three open beta.

This is not meant to be directed toward simply buffing the Scion, but changing the Scion and improving the Passive Tree as one congruent proposal.
Both proposals can stand on their own for different reasons, and I will provide those in the thread.
I merely separated the two aspects of the proposal so it's easier to understand.
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<Rant mode>

I've proposed tree changes in the past. Some people know what I've suggested. Some changes got implemented, some did not.

To explain, I'm the reason the Duelist Jewel area and Shadow Jewel areas look the way they do now. Before some circles were unconnected to the outside tree, and during the Beta I suggested looking toward the Templars example.

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Entire Tree Changes

Entire Tree Proposal Updated 12/13/2016(warning, 6mb)

To preface Removed Stat Nodes, I am making changes here because of inconsistencies of Class Inner Starting Circles. Mainly all the following links below. You will notice Ranger has the least, followed by Shadow, and the rest have 15. Either Shadow and Ranger need to have nodes added, or all other class need to have nodes removed. I am suggesting removal in specific areas.

Witch Inner Circle 15 points.
Templar Inner Circle 15 points.
Marauder Inner Circle 15 points.
Duelist Inner Circle 15 points.
Shadow Inner Circle 14 points
Ranger Inner Circle 13 points.

Removed stat Nodes
There are nodes highlighted in red circles that should be removed.
They arbitrarily limit pathing, and they connect to nothing.
Removing them makes the overall highway path count consistent, and provides less stress of actually adding something to those nodes because of design space.
This goes back to point #1 of improving tree efficiency.
The downside to this is it makes Templar and Shadow pathing strong between two Notables. This can't be avoided unless those Notables are moved or tuned, which I don't consider at the moment.
I'm willing to take the chance it's not overpowered.

Buffed Nodes
There are nodes highlighted in blue that I feel need a buff. For pathing efficiency and/or raw numbers.
Nodes that are currently under picked and are underwhelming compared to other options, such as Studious Combatant and Fencing. The placement is OK, but the overall numbers and efficiency is not there.

Revenge of the Hunted and Void Barrier, these are very efficient nodes as it is. The problem with this area is that it's kind of hard to get to, and there is little else "already on the way" that might attract players to get these nodes.
Traveling to these nodes is a little clunky. So removing one stat node in the area might help this.

I feel the Ranger at the exiting point from Aspect of the Eagle needs improvement. When exiting either toward Aspect of the Lynx or toward Survivalist.
If the connection also included the Dex node more toward Revenge of the Hunted, it gives better pathing options and gives the option of specking into a small circle wheel I have added.
That dex node is lacking, and that middle highway between Ranger and Shadow is lacking.
While Shadows have the option of getting Depth Perception, Ranger has nothing for choosing the same route.

There are two Intelligence nodes above the Witch that need improvement. They currently link to nothing outside the Witch starting area. Adding small circles to these nodes will hopefully improve player choice.
I've also adjusted the layout from the Energy Shield / Life circles. They now both connect to the same exiting Int node.

There are two circles, such as Ash Frost and Storm, and Master of Force, that I feel are lacking. Both in terms of numbers and adding something special.
The elemental wheel I think could offer elemental damage penetration, or chance to cause elemental status ailment. I don't know really, but something. It's under picked and feels underwhelming.
The same applies to Master of Force. Outside of raw numbers this circle does little outside of an Ethereal Knives build.

Added Circle Nodes
There are nodes marked in a Cyan color that I feel buff areas of the tree I feel are lacking.

There is one Strength node on the outside highway, between Indomitable and the large Staff circle, that connects to nothing. This is currently the only node on the outside tree that connects to nothing. So I proposed adding a medium sized circle to buff it.

For some, not all, inner highways between classes I've proposed adding some small circles to help.
I feel the inner highway between Marauder and Duelist is lacking a lot. One because of the extra stat node(to be removed) that is currently there, and two because of less popular utility circles.
I've only proposed to add one small circle to the area, which hopefully will help, but I feel like this area could still use some work.

You will also notice I prosed adding Medium sized circles on the inner highways, mostly on the inside node of the Jewel areas.
I propose these because I feel the Scion is lacking a little bit. Just when you would start to branch out between classes but haven't quite reached them.
Or on the flip side, when you are any other class and are trying to head toward the Scion center.
These areas are lacking in some form or another. The exception being the the area near Melding which is strong at the moment.
Adding some medium or even small circles for these areas could be an improvement.

For all of the proposed small/medium/large circles, I would be surprised if all of them had something added to those areas. I don't expect all of them to get something, but for the most part a lot of those sections need work.

Fixed Nodes
There are some nodes marked in green that need some fixes.
Most of them involve moving connections because of moved circle nodes, or because a circle was added.
Others involve nodes that were removed, and some circles need to be reconnected through nearby stat nodes.

Then finally, there is the circle for Thick Skin.
Now, there is a lot of controversy with this circle. It has been unconnected for a long time.
Lots of community feedback has expressed these nodes be connected.
Link 1 See reference 9 Thread 1
I am proposing they be connected. For the sake of design consistency, and the area as a whole needs improvement.

You could argue that because of the avoidance of Elemental Status Ailments is powerful, it is left unconnected. I quite disagree.
It is fairly simple to get status immunity on flasks, and even some Ascendancy classes have immunity during some situations. The 8% avoidance is nothing by comparison, and alone is not that strong.
In the past this node did not used to have avoidance, and was only added because the 4% life numbers are not enough to justify picking them up. I can't quite remember when it was added.

The circle could be a lot stronger, for example if it offered Life + Evasion, or Life + Armour + Evasion. That in my opinion is a lot stronger than 8% avoidance.
I'm not proposing this specifically, and I would be against it, but that's to give you a comparison idea.
Please just change it, and everyone will be happy for it.

Graceful Assault and Fatal Blade are really strong circles, but the pathing to them makes it almost unviable compared to other options.
With the removed stat nodes and fixed pathing, hopefully these become more popular.

This southern area near Ranger as a whole is lacking in some options. It's a little niche and could be improved.
Adding some small circles, removing the unnecessary stat node, and fixing connections, should improve player choice and attractiveness for pathing into this area.
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Scion Changes
I have decreased the overall size of the Scion area. Notables like Shaper, Harrier, and Sentinel have been moved slightly inward.
(Graphically Sentinel is a little left of it's normal spot, I don't have time to fix this, was not my intention, just a limitation of what I'm working with)

I have also provided another screen-shot of Jewel ranges.
These ranges should be mostly correct. It will be hard to balance nodes like Hired Killer, and True Strike for Jewel Ranges.

Hired Killer and True Strike were combined into one Medium sized circle, because of limitations to save space.
If you feel like they can stay separated in small circles then by all means keep them. I tried to consider Jewel ranges and smaller space and could not get it to work at the time.
I could probably revert this change later, but that would require making yet more screen shots or updating the current ones.

Current Scion 2.4 Tree
2.4 Scion Tree | 2.4 Scion Tree + Jewel Ranges

Scion Proposal Version one
Without Jewel Ranges | With Jewel Ranges

The Design
The design of the changes shouldn't be too drastic.
I've added three empty nodes on each side of the Utility section, which makes it look more uniform. I don't know what to add here specifically but I'm sure GGG can find something suitable.

There are three aspects you should focus on for designing nodes for the area. Offense, Defense, Utility. Then there are mixes of those. Defense+Utility, Offense+Utility, and the more rare Offense+Defense.

My suggestion is adding some sort of defense and utility? There is Block, Movement Speed, Resistances. The tree could use Stun avoidance in general more toward the left half of the tree, Leech, Crit chance, maybe elemental status effect avoidance?
With the changes I'm proposing, Path of the [W/H/S] Notables, will offer Offense+Defense+Utility. This makes these nodes really strong, and more attractive for people to pick up.

So why the change? More connectivity gives the Scion choices.
Do I want damage, utility, or defense? Now you can pick without generally being forced down specific paths, and easily exit the inner tree to the highway nodes.

I've removed two nodes from each large defense wheel. This is specific for a reason.
It doesn't punish the Scion as much for leaving her own tree, while still keeping the outside connectivity the same. Numerically the total percentages for picking up the entire defense wheel have not changed with my proposal.
Frankly if you are traveling from the outside into the Scion, it should be more attractive and not less.
Although the large defense wheels exist, I do not consider them apart of the Scion's inner area.

Lets give an example. If you have 8 points, on all other classes, you can get six nodes and two notables. While the Jewel nodes exist for the Scion, they either do not drop at lower levels or it's very rare. They only become relevant toward middle to late game.
With the changes it makes getting Path of the [W/H/S] Notables a little easier, while making the Utility choices more attractive.
Players could pick up Path of the [W/H/S] with four points, and with 7-9 points they can pick up a Jewel socket or another Notable.
Getting Path of the [W/H/S] Notables with four points still numerically come out ahead, from the current tree, because of the proposed changes.
That's an improvement over the current layout.

Please note that some Scion specific nodes have moved.
Spell damage and Cast speed have swapped places, Projectile Damage has been moved, and the Movement Speed nodes have been moved as a utility branch.
This is to be more clear and uniform of what choice do you want. Damage or Utility, and to a lesser extent Defense. It unifies the layout design.
The previous layout was mismatched, now it should be clear.

Numerically some nodes needed to be buffed (like starting damage nodes), while most others should stay overall the same (defense wheels, utility numbers).
Two nodes from each large defense wheel have been removed. Numerically some should be buffed to compensate. The ones that do get buffed are on the inside toward the Scion.
So anyone wanting to get the full defense circle can benefit more from trying to get the Notables like Path of the Savant, Warrior, or Hunter.
Starting damage nodes should be buffed to be more optimal like other classes, and more attractive.

Here is a screen shot that provides what I feel the damage and defense numerical values should be.

Defense Wheel Changes
Energy Shield
6,6,(14) ; 6,6,6,6,6
Total: 56 Average: 7
CHANGED TO
6,6,(14) ; 7,7,7,(9)
Total: 56 Average: 8

Life
5,5,(14) ; 5,5,5,5,5
Total: 49 Average: 6.125
CHANGED TO
5,5,(14) ; 6,6,6,(7)
Total: 49 Average: 7

Evasion
12,12,(30) ; 12,12,12,12,12
Total: 114 Average: 14.25
CHANGED TO
12,12,(30) ; 14,14,14,(18)
Total: 114 Average: 16.285

Damage Wheels
Melee
10,8,8,8,(12)
Total: 46%, 25 Str (+10% Melee Phys = 56%)
CHANGED TO
12,10,10,10,(16)
Total: 58% (48% if only 4 nodes taken), 25 Str
+10% (68% or 58%) from 25 Str.

Projectile
8,6,6,6,(12)
Total: 38%, 25 Dex
CHANGED TO
11,9,9,9,(15)
Total: 53% (44% if only 4 nodes taken), 25 Dex

Spell Damage
8,6,6,6,(16)
Total: 42% 25 Int
CHANGED TO
10,8,8,8,(18)
Total: 52% (44% if only 4 nodes taken), 25 Int

These changes specifically give the Scion more choice, flexibility, an efficiency buff, as well as a numerical buff.
Again, these changes are to make the Scion more attractive and not less. Scion players should not be punished for picking these nodes because of sub-par numbers and efficiency.
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Overall I feel these changes would be a step in the right direction.
With all the class overhauls being more or less complete, the tree should probably change very little from this point onward. Which is a good thing, because then just maybe you can stop giving people free respec points.

I hope to hear positive feedback from the community about this, but we'll see.
I'd like to hear ideas of what certain classes are lacking, and maybe give GGG some ideas how to buff certain areas.

Also, please don't be Thick headed, and remember to change Thick Skin. (ﾉ◕ヮ◕)ﾉ*･ﾟ✧
Thanks for reading.

After hearing a recent podcast involving GGG Nick, it got me intrigued on how long it takes to design and balance the passive tree during a rework.

This got me motivated again to continue to pursue this proposal.
I got no feedback so far, which I can take as the community doesn't browse this section that often. Which is OK, that just means I need to babysit the thread more until it gets some response.

I honestly think my proposal isn't too confusing, or that it cannot be done.
I'm more concerned about the overall clutter of the Scion area, because of unrelated passive circles being moved into her inner-area.

I would like community feedback.
Specifically on the pathing, potential problems or oversight, and suggestions for adding new utility nodes on the side branches.

I can't be bothered to read.

1. Passive tree is boring. It is literally just one big open ended math problem. Do you want more life? Go here. Do you want more damage? Go there. Which path uses the least amount of points for the most gain?

2. You are doing a ton of work for no reward. GGG does what they want to do.

3. GGG does not understand balance. They tweak everything based on "gut feelings". Which brings us back to point 2.


If you aren't doing this for hobby, then I suggest you stop.

x

Patch 2.6 isn't gonna be a thing XD

2.5.0 is next, followed by 3.0.0

RIP

Docbp87 said one of the first things that came to my mind on this.

Aside from that, I agree with almost all of the proposed changes. I say almost because there's a few changes I would personally make.


Scion area: The rework is great, and the only thing I'd change is to not have the outside part of the utility circles connect to the middle and then go straight through the jewel to the other side. It just seems like trying to make connections for the sake of making connections.


Templar area: Make sure that moving the staff wheel up still allows the Lioneye's Fall jewel to work for that entire wheel. If that's not possible, perhaps its position should be swapped with the new wheel.


Duelist area: There's a space above the hybrid life/mana leech wheel that is begging for another wheel to be added.


Ranger area: Pull the physical bow damage wheel underneath Acrobatics closer in so all its nodes can be under a Large range jewel in the Ranger's jewel next to the frenzy charge. Alternately, pull the jewel wheel closer to the outside to achieve the same goal. I noticed that little oddity trying to find places where the Cold Steel jewel could fit, and thanks to Nuro's Harp existing now that might be a great place for it. The entire Marauder axe wheel is covered by that jewel for Dyadus offhand (which can be used with Lacerate now) so it seems fair to give the same treatment to the ranger's bow wheel.


Shadow area: The two nodes flanking Sleight of Hand need to either be cut (and thus have the phys and DoT minor nodes connect directly to it) or connected directly to the outside of the wheel. If connected to the outside then those nodes should not connect to the minor phys or DoT nodes. Another option would be to rework the wheel because having two physical notables close together like that is bad.

Also for Shadow: Change the damn condom area! Don't know what I mean by the condom? This image:


Why is it connected like that? Better yet (or worse, depending on your point of view) is the cock and balls the nodes make:

There's even the line down the middle on the scrotum.

Even if the cock/condom remains, change the nodes somehow so that pathing around Nullification is viable, perhaps by having a connection from Nullification to the Dex node directly to its right and then change the Int node above it to path directly to Coldhearted Calculation while the Dex node below connects to Fangs of the Viper. Neither of those nodes should connect to the Nullification wheel.

And what on earth is up with the way Sniper and Nullification are arranged? You've got two minor evasion/ES nodes leading into an Evasion/ES/5%Lifebecausewhy? notable, but those evasion/ES nodes also go into a minor projectile node that goes into a projectile notable?

Not a big fan of allowing easy access to the Scion AoE nodes from outside or as easily as this from/to the jewel slot. This area of the tree is already ridiculously overused and giving everyone more of a stat as powerful as AoE is not a good idea.

But then again maybe it doesn't matter with stuff like The Dying Sun being in the game.