Labyrinth is a terrible necessity

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goetzjam wrote:

You do realize the traps hurt because you are suppose to avoid them right?

Of course. But once again, the content is (to me, at the very least) still overly punishing and confusing. Uber lab trials are very complex and visually difficult to understand without standing in the middle of them, at which point you're likely taking damage. Perhaps if the minimap or an interactive object in the room gave you a quick layout of what was ahead before you run through it, it might make things a bit less punishing, but the %damage is still very high.

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sidtherat wrote:

and how is that a bad thing? the lab is one of the few real achievements and tests left in POE. it can still be paid for but you have to do the traps YOURSELF. one of the few things that test you as a player not your build (that anyone can copy) nor you wealth acquisition skills (gear).

And I never said that the labyrinth should be removed. I am 100% for the addition of cool and dangerous mechanics--so long as they aren't viewed as a necessity. Again, let's look at Atziri as a comparison:

Atziri: difficult, dangerous, mid-low level mechanical content. Reward: Valuable uniques that, if you choose, can be bought instead.

Labyrinth: difficult, dangerous, mid-high level mechanical content. Reward: Valuable skill points unattainable anywhere else.

Keep the labyrinth in with the reward being something you can sell. You can still do the labyrinth, you can still achieve that awesome new shiny thing, and you can still gloat about it, but now it's no longer viewed as a 'necessity' for min-maxing any builds.

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sidtherat wrote:

and if you play HC - why you are for difficult mechanics that are AVOIDABLE?

Because I want to be able to opt-in to that content. Just because I'm playing HC doesn't mean the game has to be tuned up to level 11 hard mode. It's designed as the same game as Standard with only 1 life. If I think my build is doing well and is ready to face the super scary thing behind door number 1, I want to make that decision myself. I don't want to feel forced into it by otherwise-unobtainable boosts to my character being dangled over my head.

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sidtherat wrote:

so it is what HC is now? a bunch of hard, elite, uber, difficult scary content you do not have to touch but you can still play the 'i play for thrills and challenge' flag?

You're exactly right, I think. This sentence is a bit difficult to read, but I think you're pretty much stating what I did up above. I've played numerous HC characters to level 90+ and had a blast doing so. In some of those characters I did wild and crazy things like Uber Atziri and twinned Core maps, and often died because of it. But that was my choice, I didn't feel like I was being blocked out of any content I might want to access. Now? If I want those last 2 points (or 4 if merc lab is hard for some users) then I have to bite the bullet and get through it, mediocre mechanics or not.

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sidtherat wrote:

lab being mandatory (or not but it is something for others to waste their time discussing) sure had impact on HC - it is no longer so easy to wave the 'im superior because i play HC' flag. logout - the most popular skill in HC! - will save you from traps/Izaro but will cost you an entire run. that must be infuriating.. and people ARE conditioned to chicken gameplay in HC. streamers no longer pretend that they will take the death if they deserve it - they 'log' and still claim they are HC. it is lame. and anything that puts a stop to that i welcome with open arms

I don't think this has too much to do with the original point and I don't really have an opinion. I don't care too much what other people think of themselves for what they've done. I play the game pretty solo, and I enjoy it for the most part just as it is.

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ToBeSomebody wrote:

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goetzjam wrote:

You do realize the traps hurt because you are suppose to avoid them right?

Of course. But once again, the content is (to me, at the very least) still overly punishing and confusing. Uber lab trials are very complex and visually difficult to understand without standing in the middle of them, at which point you're likely taking damage. Perhaps if the minimap or an interactive object in the room gave you a quick layout of what was ahead before you run through it, it might make things a bit less punishing, but the %damage is still very high.

The game was designed with the idea of being cruel,and punishing,what we got now is nothing compared how it was years ago,there were no tutorials,to see your quests you had to actually press U,if i recall correct not even waypoint PoIs were in game,so you had to know where they actually were,PoE has already bent over too much to cater to D3 rejects.
I am happy that they kept uber lab,as someone said,an actual challenge.
The way i see it,you want your hand to be held throughout challenges,in which case might i suggest a different game?

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Daiena wrote:

The game was designed with the idea of being cruel,and punishing,what we got now is nothing compared how it was years ago,there were no tutorials,to see your quests you had to actually press U,if i recall correct not even waypoint PoIs were in game,so you had to know where they actually were,PoE has already bent over too much to cater to D3 rejects.
I am happy that they kept uber lab,as someone said,an actual challenge.
The way i see it,you want your hand to be held throughout challenges,in which case might i suggest a different game?

You seem awfully defensive over simply changing the rewards of something that already exists.

I love nearly every aspect of PoE. Even as a casual gamer I love the thrill of HC and yes, even some of the more brutal content. But again I have to ask why brutal content has to be made mandatory? I understand that you enjoy it as much as you do, and I've never once suggested to remove the labyrinth or even to rework its difficulty. I only suggest removing the Ascendancy points and perhaps giving them elsewhere for content that might be tedious and certainly challenging, but still obtainable by a larger majority of the userbase.

I appreciate your suggestion of trying a different game, but I happen to enjoy this one very much, and think it would only be better if they implement some of the changes I've suggested.

EDIT: I noticed you didn't list your characters in your profile. I'm curious to know whether you enjoy this content as a standard player, or if you play hardcore more often?

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double post bug..

The worst part is, that you are playing an ARPG and should not be expected to play labyrinth/trap style stuff to achieve crucial character progression.

It's fine if they add stuff like that optional. Like, just let it have some leaderboards or whatever but don't make it necessary for every player.

I have not once completed a lab after I had my ascendancies. Really not my cup of coffee. And it'd be fine if people enjoy it, but it gets forced onto everyone.

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ToBeSomebody wrote:

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Daiena wrote:

The game was designed with the idea of being cruel,and punishing,what we got now is nothing compared how it was years ago,there were no tutorials,to see your quests you had to actually press U,if i recall correct not even waypoint PoIs were in game,so you had to know where they actually were,PoE has already bent over too much to cater to D3 rejects.
I am happy that they kept uber lab,as someone said,an actual challenge.
The way i see it,you want your hand to be held throughout challenges,in which case might i suggest a different game?

You seem awfully defensive over simply changing the rewards of something that already exists.

I love nearly every aspect of PoE. Even as a casual gamer I love the thrill of HC and yes, even some of the more brutal content. But again I have to ask why brutal content has to be made mandatory? I understand that you enjoy it as much as you do, and I've never once suggested to remove the labyrinth or even to rework its difficulty. I only suggest removing the Ascendancy points and perhaps giving them elsewhere for content that might be tedious and certainly challenging, but still obtainable by a larger majority of the userbase.

I appreciate your suggestion of trying a different game, but I happen to enjoy this one very much, and think it would only be better if they implement some of the changes I've suggested.

EDIT: I noticed you didn't list your characters in your profile. I'm curious to know whether you enjoy this content as a standard player, or if you play hardcore more often?

My profile is open for poe trade caching purpose,so as far as i know everyone should be able to view my characters (Unless i am horribly wrong) and in case i am wrong,i haven't played HC in poe since closed beta because i like experimenting,which means at lvl 70/80 i usually start trying out random things which often lead to horrible deaths.
My point was not about the labs as a whole thing,but merely about the uber lab on it's own,which never was,and still is not in most cases mandatory,or to be considered a major improvement. As someone said,it's a thing that min-maxers will go for. Majority doesn't count here. In fact statistically majority of PoE players apparently never make past act 1 normal,both hardcore and softcore (according to GGG interviews) What they decide to do with normal/cruel/merc labs i don't really care much,with all the power creep that has been going on,they are easy.

The only two things i can really add is:
1.Turn off shadows,trust me,the traps become a whole lot more easy to see.
2.Perhaps they could add very faint white silhouettes to the traps,so that they would be more noticeable with or without shadows turned on.

I personally don't understand how can someone not see a trap,even if you don't see it,you should be hearing them. I am playing SRS,and in most cases my screen is full of...stuff,and even then i always spot them. The only case where i would wipe out,would be moments of bad judgement and overconfidence,which is what as far as i can see this thread suggests to make viable.

They already have a thread about the lab. Please don't muck up the forums.