The Labyrinth layout should change every time you enter.

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gibbousmoon wrote:

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RagnarokChu wrote:

Nobody disagrees that lab should change,

You're not paying attention, are you. ;)

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people are disagreeing that somehow it's needed to randomize it to help set up for the future of the an better lab. Which as I pointed out has much merit because there's 0 point in making the experience worse for everyone with an unneeded "pre-patch" that can last for months until GGG wants to change lab. They can work on new version lab in internal testing.

You obviously have far more faith than I.

You and other players who don't like the lab are a "vocal minority," didn't you know? The general consensus is that changes in the lab are NOT forthcoming. I wish it were otherwise.

This particular change would likely change that consensus, however, and it might be defensible enough to convince, GGG. Especially given their antipathy to maphack. And their (presumable) recognition that a broken meta is never good for the game.

You seem to think that leaving things as they are will eventually lead to GGG fixing the unfun nature of the Labyrinth. I wish I could agree, but there is plenty of evidence to suggest otherwise.

It's not faith, under the assumption that you are giving feedback to GGG and they are reading this to actually make changes to their game.

If they aren't making an effort to change how maps work, why would they randomize it and have more complaints about it. If they already are making an effort to change maps work, they don't need to have a pre-patch to randomize the map and have people complain until they roll out the entire reworked lab.

Just randomizing it without retooling labs in a big update is pointless in your objective in actually fixing labs, and if they are going to do some effort on fixing labs. There is 0 point in rolling out the update half assed with just randomization.

This would be like to fix melee, we remove all good melee skills until we figure out/or when people complain that melee sucks enough for us to put all of our effort into fixing it.

We don't need a transitionary step that makes the game temporarily worst for "potential" of fixing it in the future.

I like the idea of random layouts. But I don't look up a layout or race. But I often play crappy (non-meta) characters and can't make sure buffs don't make it to the last fight (Like the conduit/charges). It would be nice to reset it instead of waiting until there is a more favorable layout.

you want to make that disgusting hole even more disgusting? poelab is practically the only reason why i don't kill small animals every time i have to run ascendancies in a new league.

i have zero faith in ggg making any improvements that make labyrinth more fun to deal with. so just let it stay like it is now; at least it's barely tolerable with daily layout maps available.

I don't even need to read title to say i agree.

What is the point of having it as it is now? It is just an attempt at making some new system, but it doesn't make sense. Just improved regular area generation is king.

But maybe it would increase amount of hate from ppl who don't like lab since now they need to adjust every time.

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Crackmonster wrote:

I don't even need to read title to say i agree.

What is the point of having it as it is now? It is just an attempt at making some new system, but it doesn't make sense. Just improved regular area generation is king.

But maybe it would increase amount of hate from ppl who don't like lab since now they need to adjust every time.

I enjoy the lab and I hate the idea of making it truly random. There are days you can play around avoiding more difficult versions, longer runs, 4 key runs, ect, having it be truly random also removes any and all chances of it being anywhere near a competitive ladder race as well.


Not only that, but this will enable people that dislike the lab to actually have more reasons to dislike it.

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goetzjam wrote:

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Crackmonster wrote:

I don't even need to read title to say i agree.

What is the point of having it as it is now? It is just an attempt at making some new system, but it doesn't make sense. Just improved regular area generation is king.

But maybe it would increase amount of hate from ppl who don't like lab since now they need to adjust every time.

I enjoy the lab and I hate the idea of making it truly random. There are days you can play around avoiding more difficult versions, longer runs, 4 key runs, ect, having it be truly random also removes any and all chances of it being anywhere near a competitive ladder race as well.


Not only that, but this will enable people that dislike the lab to actually have more reasons to dislike it.

Nah, I think the people who would hate this change the most are lab fans such as yourself, and/or people who run the lab regularly for profit (regardless of whether they are a fan of the content itself).

People that dislike the lab aren't the ones exploiting this (sanctioned) maphack-like cheat to maximize their per-hour profits.

Locking down the exploit so that those who don't enjoy that kind of meta-play are less hurt by the disadvantage they have in not also exploiting it does actually help them, albeit indirectly.

There's a thread complaining about the same fellow always winning the labyrinth ladder race. Randomizing the labyrinth layout should make it easier for other people to win the labyrinth race.

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Turtledove wrote:

There's a thread complaining about the same fellow always winning the labyrinth ladder race. Randomizing the labyrinth layout should make it easier for other people to win the labyrinth race.

Not really, the first is the most efficient, and is not running it only once, but plenty of times to be first.
That would not change much for this imho.

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Fruz wrote:

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Turtledove wrote:

There's a thread complaining about the same fellow always winning the labyrinth ladder race. Randomizing the labyrinth layout should make it easier for other people to win the labyrinth race.

Not really, the first is the most efficient, and is not running it only once, but plenty of times to be first.
That would not change much for this imho.

I agree. Randomizing the lab probably would neither hurt nor help racers, though it would arguably encourage the acquisition of a different kind of skillset for them to win.

But that was never the goal of this suggestion. The goal is, ultimately, to tweak the lab such that it is fun for explorers in addition min-max meta-players. Right now it is not only much more fun for the latter group; it is arguably ONLY fun for the latter group.

As someone earlier in this thread pointed out, min-max meta players would still have a huge advantage. That's fine. At least the explorer group would not be utterly excluded from having fun with this content, and they would no longer be punished--as they are now--for not cheesing the content.

This kind of balance is good for the game.