Lab is [Removed by Support]- some answers and feedback

hello everyone,

three parts of this post:
- PART 1: feedback on character progression
- PART 2: my opinions about some arguments about lab I hear both in-game and here in forums (this is the long part)
- PART 3: my test runs in the lab to see/remember how it was, cause its been a while

last update: 29th of August

if I find a point from a post in this thread (now checking other threads too) I'll update this first post and write my opinion about it.
and a personal note: wtf, since when I wrote in a forum thread instead of playing the game! oh wait, the lab.
another note: lol, safe space is strong with GGG support!

note: the title was not intentional on my part, it's just fate ;)



PART 1: some feedback;

character progression: lab is counter intuitive for character progression and it is a first in PoE to lock something in the tree behind some content. make the lab like any other optional content, as you, GGG, almost always do with radical changes. don't force it to every player.
during the 48h flashback ssf race, I couldn't make myself run the lab. and I felt that my character is missing some part cause GGG made the lab boredom a part of character progression.

example; Pain Attunement keynode in the skill tree is free to pick for a character at any level. I know ascendancy points are different to keynodes in the tree. but I would argue they have a similar function for character progression.
so, what I would love to see next patch is that Pain Attunement keynode is locked behind lab. that means if you wanna pick Pain Attunement keynode for your character, you have to endure the lab boredom. you don't "have to" pick that keynode but it is crucial for your character progression, so you will feel compelled to run the fun-sucking lab.
you can replace Pain Attunement keynode with Blood Magic or Vaal Pact or Iron Reflexes, the idea is the same.


- this thread is full of rich content and detailed solutions, I would urge you to read the first post cause its updated from time to time.


- if the lab mechanics intent to slow down power-creep and/or fast-paced gameplay, it fails miserably in my opinion


- why I wrote this post: cause my post is removed from this AoW announcement thread as needlessly negative. [Removed by Support] understandably, the announcement thread should be to kept a happy thread.
yea I know, that thread may not the best place for it, but my detest for the fun-sucking forced lab boredom got the best of me.
besides, I wanted to write answers about some nonsense I saw in here and in-game, and emphasis on character progression.


- why I wrote answers section below: cause as far as I know GGG has not said anything about the reasons for this kind of deviation from gameplay and forcing this special content for character progression. if there is something from GGG that I miss, please let me know. all I saw was arguments from other players that miss the point, hence the answers below.


PART 2: some answers;

"lab is optional":
- no, it's not. character progression is not optional, that's the most important thing that makes this game and alike games enjoyable. while leveling my character and upgrading my gear I feel I make progress. and I was able to do it as I like. fast, slow, efficient whatever. my character progression was not locked behind the lab or any other special content (although lab is different in every way, not comparable to any other content in the game).

"but the game has gotten too easy":
- so what? forcing lab to everyone is not the solution.

"you say those things cause you think lab is hard":
- lab is not hard, it is tedious and fun-sucking boredom. it was like use leap/whirl and quicksilvers when I forced myself to do it last time. adjusting Izaro's damage values lower/higher will not make the lab less boring/tedious. for some builds you just need to overlevel a bit for Izaro, like some other bosses, that's all.

"get good":
- yea, quicksilvers and some door making you wait 3 seconds to finish its animation is the incentive to make players play better.

"you're a scrub":
- personally I'm not, but what if I am? what does it have to do with the tedious lab itself?

"you are just whining":
- since when voicing the tedious forced-boredom for character progression and voicing the stark deviation from the PoE gameplay is considered to be whining?

"lab is ok/nice":
- gratz. I'm happy for you that you like that content, I really am. to me, lab is fun-sucking forced boredom.

"you're asking for free stuff":
- I say "don't bore me to death", "I wanna play PoE, not some prince of persia hybrid", also see "character progression" below feedback section.

"I see you but this is GGG's game and GGG wants it that way":
- so, GGG makes PoE to be the next prince of persia hybrid of some sort and I have to keep silent about it? you know, I like and play this game too, even though lab has recently has made my addiction managable.


"Why make another lab thread?":
- I think emphasis on character progression and answers section are unique in this post.

"you are just minority":
- minority or not. is this even an argument? just because majority of people do not say anything about tedious lab or about deviation of gameplay, I would not be disqualified to say something about it. also about GGG taking decision to cater to majority of players or more players, I believe GGG would eventually go much more mainstream cause it is "a company". even auction house and pay to win might come in the years to come, but I can only hope that they will come after I leave this world. note: also I very much doubt that majority of the players like arcade style tedious lab.

"love-hate tension is good":
- if it was not about ascendancy class that is so core to the game, it would keep people energized and interested, like fans of a sports club. as it is now, it is disheartening to see some tedious, fun-sucking boredom is forced on players.

"in real life, you handle obstacles and even do things you don't necessarily like. just deal with it and go on playing the game":
- I don't agree with the comparison to real life but I also don't want to leave it unanswered. in real life, first I would try to solve the situation, if I'm not successful, then try to find temporary solutions before transitioning to better conditions. so, in this context this suggests that I would leave PoE :(

"Does comparing a 15 minute game experience to cancer help anyone or just make you sound overreactive?":
- overreacting, hmm I wouldn't call it overreacting but I can understand it might seem to you that way. I'll quote what I wrote under feedback in character progression above. I died as lvl83 plain shadow and mind you, you would need all the power you could get with those race mods; "during the 48h flashback ssf race, I couldn't make myself run the lab. and I felt that my character is missing some part cause GGG made the lab boredom a part of character progression."

"there are other problems too":
- I'll not list all here but yea, there may be either QoL or more serious things about PoE. but all those things does not change anything about the forced lab boredom. I think lab's deviation from PoE gameplay and being a mandatory part of character progression makes lab a unique pain in the ass.


on 26th of August, I did look into old posts about the lab. here are some positive ideas about lab from a thread (thread is "Labyrinth is one of the best additions PoE ever had")

"Variance. Labyrinth is played a lot difference than other parts of the game. Interesting!":
- yep, the gameplay varied drastically, that's actually one of the points we are making! it's forced content for ascendancy points, so prince of persia, frogger, tetris, you name it, would function the same way some would say.

"Decision making and stagnation breaking. Playing Normal -> Cruel -> Merciless has some decision making now. You just don't just faceroll to maps. You have to decide when you want to Ascend on each difficulty - Ascending earlier gives you benefits which accelerate leveling, but is also risky, because it is pretty difficult."
- I still faceroll to maps without running lab but that's not the point. binding a big part of character progression with a forced-content is a problem along with drastic gameplay changes. I think lab should be very much like the rest of the radical changes to the game, optional.

"Another thing to farm in late game! Maps, Atziri... Now Labyrinth! What not to like?! This is what PoE needed, and still needs."
- exactly, lab can be another optional content with the rewards, not a forced content for character progression. I would love to see the reaction if ascendancy points was gated behind Atziri. (I would prefer Atziri-gated ascendancy to Lab-gated ascendancy everyday!)

"More racing! You can now race without having to do 5h of racing per day - if you can get a good time, you'll get rewards! Neat."
- no problem with lab racing on my part. but this has nothing to do with the current lab problem.

"Theme. Izaro is a bro. Stuff he says is cool. He is cool. Lab is great!"
- I totally agree with this, but the last sentence, "Lab is great!", has nothing to do with Izaro himself! Izaro is cool, lab sucks!



PART 3: my test runs in the lab;

on 27th of August, I ran lab with two old standard league chars. I may do a few more "runs", i.e leaping/whirling.
- first char was EQ marauder. 5k life, 3k armour, 11k 2h phys dps. I ran normal, cruel and merciless labs. each took around 20-25 minutes. I said I "ran" but actually 15 minutes of the lab passed with "leaping".

- second char was poison BF block trapper. 3.5k life, low dps. I just ran merciless lab. again most of the run was "whirling"

- low dps is intentional, I wanted to see boss fight and it is cool.

my current conclusion:
- leaping/whirling and/or movement speed is the most important part. investment to mobility can drop lab running pain to 10 minutes for me.

- if you are a regular runner, getting familiar with the day's layout and adding more mobility to the char is important.

- for existing old chars, the lab itself would take around 25 minutes once in merciless lab.

- for new chars 70-75 min for labs, plus 15-20 min for the trials, total would be around 90 min for each char.

- Izaro is actually cool, despite the lab itself. Malachai seems way more easier than Izaro. Doing Izaro with a normal leveling char in HC is too much risky for my taste, probably because I don't know the mechanics for Izaro.

- I haven't done any map trial, hence no uber lab for me. not sure if the old chars are forced to do map trials to be able to run uber lab.


on 29th of August, I respecced one of the old ranger char in standard to evasion movement speed, looking at this PAJAMAS_RUNNING_FAST and ran the lab. no leaping/whirling/warping just running. running so fast, almost the lab pain eased :)
but either timing or damage I don't know why, I didn't one shot izaro so he killed me.

well, after a few tries, under 10 min runs are done. a little of getting used to and a little of daily lab layout practice can make it as low as 5-6 minutes with this build for me I think.

I didn't look at/care for mods or anything. just ran and killed him. usually got 2 or 3 keys. chests contain currency but they are not worth the time/effort. I think enchants are the real incentive for people running lab.

it seems that Pathfinder is special for running with flask buffs
if you run faster then a certain treshold, lab trinkets don't touch you or you don't feel it (not sure about treshold % MS but it can be around 150% and 200%).

next time, I'll look into how a normal build can run lab without suffering 30-45 mins.

well, there is not much hope to ease the lab pain.
all I can think of is; one set of gear for running and another set of gear for boss fight. 30% MS boots (seven league step boots 50% movement speed but impossible/hard to obtain in temp leagues), Queen of the Forest along with high evasion gear and running a levelled Grace. this can work if you are at right side of the tree and respec some points to get evasion nodes. so the lab running boredom is limited to around 10-12 min.

selçuk

You forgot "Why make another thread that says the exact same thing that umpteen other threads do?"

"

PleiadesBlackstar wrote:

You forgot "Why make another thread that says the exact same thing that umpteen other threads do?"

thx for reminding, edited the first post for my answer.

"

I think emphasis on character progression and answers section are unique in this post.

Its not

"

PleiadesBlackstar wrote:

You forgot "Why make another thread that says the exact same thing that umpteen other threads do?"

In the repeated, and sadly futile hope, that GGG will answer. The only things they HAVE said about lab is that "Divisive content is OK" and that "Lab haters are a minority".

Divisive OPTIONAL content is OK. As we can all see...Lab is NOT optional.

Minority....LMFAO. A), There's a large body of anecdotal evidence to the contrary, that it is in fact disliked or at best, tolerated, by a MAJORITY of players. B)...How do you get data for that? Oh right...You don't, because you can't. Judging by the forums or Reddit it would be a clear majority....So they aren't getting their made up statistic from THAT....So where did they get the data to claim it's a minority, exactly?

GGG insists on keeping silent about Lab, because they can see that it's a MAJORITY of people who would leave if they announced that Lab was never leaving, never changing, and ascendancies would always be locked behind it.

Reddit has such a majority of lab hater that all their post get downvoted to oblivion, right.



PS : "lab is cancer" has been deemed needlessly negative in a post that has been removed, so now you just put in as the title of a thread ?
nice ....

"

GGG insists on keeping silent about Lab

This is just false, you all just ignore literally every single time its brought up. Chris made a comment about the lab on the podcast and they are OK with content "gating" your rewards, even if you don't enjoy doing it, you still do it because you want the reward.

"

Divisive OPTIONAL content is OK

Says you, GGG says as a whole divisive content is ok, optional or not.

"

Minority....LMFAO. A), There's a large body of anecdotal evidence to the contrary, that it is in fact disliked or at best, tolerated, by a MAJORITY of players.

It is a minority, there are a few people here that literally shitpost about the lab whenever given the opportunity, but in terms of "EVERYONE HATES THE FUCKING LAB YOU ARE STUPID GGG FOR NOT SEEING THAT IM A SPECIAL FLOWER THAT COUNTS FOR EVERYONE", not so much.

Even if its "tolerated" or meh by most, they understand that the content is different because the reward is different and powerful. But hey you know best right, because you've played this game for so long and so often.

"

B)...How do you get data for that? Oh right...You don't, because you can't. Judging by the forums or Reddit it would be a clear majority....So they aren't getting their made up statistic from THAT....So where did they get the data to claim it's a minority, exactly?

Fun fact reddit has the opposite opinion of the lab, go post a I hate the lab thread on reddit, bet you that you get downvoted to shit and not really given any attention. Here where people can't "dislike" or hide the stupid LAB SUCKS post, you get more attention.

The devs read these forums, they can see who and how many are complaining, but constant complaining about the same content FROM THE SAME PEOPLE, doesn't mean "more people dislike it" if anything you are making it harder for them to determine how many people hate the lab.

"

because they can see that it's a MAJORITY of people who would leave if they announced that Lab was never leaving, never changing, and ascendancies would always be locked behind it.

"majority"

Yeah ok buddy, if it was as large of an issue as you and others would like to make it out to be they would have had no other option then to do something by now, but it isn't and that should be clear by now. In terms of the lab changing, until they announce to the contrary assume it isn't going to change. Assume you will have to do the lab to get the AC points.

Maybe one day when more content gets added it would be logical to move the AC points, but as of now it isn't, as of now they haven't indicated a change, but please, by all means keep shitposting on the topic that will help convince them that they are stupid and they need to change the game to fit to your ideals of game design.

"

goetzjam wrote:

"

GGG insists on keeping silent about Lab

This is just false, you all just ignore literally every single time its brought up. Chris made a comment about the lab on the podcast and they are OK with content "gating" your rewards, even if you don't enjoy doing it, you still do it because you want the reward.

"

Divisive OPTIONAL content is OK

Says you, GGG says as a whole divisive content is ok, optional or not.

"

Minority....LMFAO. A), There's a large body of anecdotal evidence to the contrary, that it is in fact disliked or at best, tolerated, by a MAJORITY of players.

It is a minority, there are a few people here that literally shitpost about the lab whenever given the opportunity, but in terms of "EVERYONE HATES THE FUCKING LAB YOU ARE STUPID GGG FOR NOT SEEING THAT IM A SPECIAL FLOWER THAT COUNTS FOR EVERYONE", not so much.

Even if its "tolerated" or meh by most, they understand that the content is different because the reward is different and powerful. But hey you know best right, because you've played this game for so long and so often.

"

B)...How do you get data for that? Oh right...You don't, because you can't. Judging by the forums or Reddit it would be a clear majority....So they aren't getting their made up statistic from THAT....So where did they get the data to claim it's a minority, exactly?

Fun fact reddit has the opposite opinion of the lab, go post a I hate the lab thread on reddit, bet you that you get downvoted to shit and not really given any attention. Here where people can't "dislike" or hide the stupid LAB SUCKS post, you get more attention.

The devs read these forums, they can see who and how many are complaining, but constant complaining about the same content FROM THE SAME PEOPLE, doesn't mean "more people dislike it" if anything you are making it harder for them to determine how many people hate the lab.

"

because they can see that it's a MAJORITY of people who would leave if they announced that Lab was never leaving, never changing, and ascendancies would always be locked behind it.

"majority"

Yeah ok buddy, if it was as large of an issue as you and others would like to make it out to be they would have had no other option then to do something by now, but it isn't and that should be clear by now. In terms of the lab changing, until they announce to the contrary assume it isn't going to change. Assume you will have to do the lab to get the AC points.

Maybe one day when more content gets added it would be logical to move the AC points, but as of now it isn't, as of now they haven't indicated a change, but please, by all means keep shitposting on the topic that will help convince them that they are stupid and they need to change the game to fit to your ideals of game design.

A) I like how you ignored that they have ZERO way to gain data as to how many people hate the lab. So many people like you ignore the FACT that they have NO consistent way to measure who actually likes the lab.

B) I literally referenced the comment FROM the podcast. It's one of TWO things they've said. So, YES, they ARE keeping silent after those whole TWO comments.

C) Says most gaming companies as NON optional divisive content tends to RUN PEOPLE OFF.

D) If GGG ever confirms that Ascendancies aren't moving, and Lab is never changing....WATCH how many people leave. Supporter or not, I WILL be one of them. I stay because I hope GGG will wise up and stop making me suffer through that FOUR times per character....Oh wait, I mean THREE, because I haven't even FOUND all the damned Uber Lab trials.

E) Get something new to say, or an actual opinion. Just trying to say the opposite of what I say without any actual BASIS is not helping either of us.

"

Nssheepster wrote:

"

PleiadesBlackstar wrote:

You forgot "Why make another thread that says the exact same thing that umpteen other threads do?"

In the repeated, and sadly futile hope, that GGG will answer. The only things they HAVE said about lab is that "Divisive content is OK" and that "Lab haters are a minority".

Divisive OPTIONAL content is OK. As we can all see...Lab is NOT optional.

Minority....LMFAO. A), There's a large body of anecdotal evidence to the contrary, that it is in fact disliked or at best, tolerated, by a MAJORITY of players. B)...How do you get data for that? Oh right...You don't, because you can't. Judging by the forums or Reddit it would be a clear majority....So they aren't getting their made up statistic from THAT....So where did they get the data to claim it's a minority, exactly?

GGG insists on keeping silent about Lab, because they can see that it's a MAJORITY of people who would leave if they announced that Lab was never leaving, never changing, and ascendancies would always be locked behind it.

nice, two points I missed. added to the first post.

"

Nssheepster wrote:

A) I like how you ignored that they have ZERO way to gain data as to how many people hate the lab. So many people like you ignore the FACT that they have NO consistent way to measure who actually likes the lab.

B) I literally referenced the comment FROM the podcast. It's one of TWO things they've said. So, YES, they ARE keeping silent after those whole TWO comments.

C) Says most gaming companies as NON optional divisive content tends to RUN PEOPLE OFF.

D) If GGG ever confirms that Ascendancies aren't moving, and Lab is never changing....WATCH how many people leave. Supporter or not, I WILL be one of them. I stay because I hope GGG will wise up and stop making me suffer through that FOUR times per character....Oh wait, I mean THREE, because I haven't even FOUND all the damned Uber Lab trials.

E) Get something new to say, or an actual opinion. Just trying to say the opposite of what I say without any actual BASIS is not helping either of us.

A) Much like they have no way to gain data as to how many people like the lab, works both sides, buddy. Lets assume they manually count how many people post about the topic one way or another on the forums, hows that for you?

B) After they already made comments about not having any current plans to change the lab, you want them to make another comment that they aren't changing the lab in 2.4? I'll give you a hint, if it isn't in the 2.4 patch notes, it isn't happening for 2.4, is that a clear enough statement for you?

C) They don't care if it runs some people off because its a piece of content they wanted to add into the game. Almost all the people active on the discussion do the lab, just bitch about it constantly, proving the point right that it is indeed fine to have the content in the game the way it is.

D) Never is a long time, again they don't want to lock themselves out of design options. If you read context clues or understand historically what they have done, you will realize that they don't have current plans to change it, at least for 2.4, maybe beyond that.

1) You know you can interact with other players to find the trials you are missing. Even if they changed the lab either to be different or to give you AC points in another way, do you think you wouldn't have to do something 3\4 times and it be as "time consuming" as it is now? You'd have to be batshit crazy to think that they are going to give you additional power for something as stupid as killing malachai, lazy people with lazy solutions and expectations sometimes makes the picture quite clear.

You don't hate the lab, you hate the idea of doing anything to get "build defining" or additional power. Pathetic how we have players that think this way now, trying to think where GGG went wrong and where the mentality was somehow stated that this was a casual game or that you should get shit without working for it.