2.3.0 Changes to the High-level Experience Equation

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Smear wrote:

Others have voiced their dislike (and their reasoning) much better than I could have done. I'm not liking this at experience nerf at all, at all.

As others have stated, this only hurts the more casual player, which is the vast majority of players, over the few that runs maps 24/7 for 2 months straight in group/team play.

• CoC Dischargers overpowered? Let's just apply nerfs to all CoC, and not touch Discharge.
• Everyone's using Voltaxic Spark? Better nerf ALL elemental->chaos conversion. Screw you if you were using an Infernal Mantle!
• Pro streamers are using rapid-fire Gorge rotations to hit level 100 two weeks after a league comes out? Better nerf ALL high-level experience gains, and screw over everyone else while adding just a couple days for the pros!

• Is it because maps of level 70-78 (a main target of the nerf) exist and give the EXP they do? NO, Of course not; those maps existed BEFORE level 100 became a quick thing.
• Is it because massive power creep has let players mow through content at increasingly-ludicrous speeds, one-shotting whole screens? YES, that has contributed, but it'd be Hard to fix. Players have already been given massive amounts of power, so scaling back that disparity would require careful rebalancing of EVERYTHING.
• Is it because the current meta allows for easy building without much worry about survivability? YES, that has contributed, but fixing that would require a fundamental way to how the game is played, and might not be possible/plausible. These "slowing agents" (like reflect packs and desync) were removed because they were hated, and not fun; fake difficulty is not real challenge.
• Is it because we have players who skip making the game fun in favor of rapid Gorge/Plateau rotations? YES, YES, YES. Running a 6-man group both splits the cost of mapping, (letting players ignore the time consumed to maximize drops and pick up maps) as well as simply making the total clear faster; a single fast-clearer can empty a map in 6-10 minutes (depending on layout) while a 6-man group can clear a Gorge in as little as ~1:30. It's clear that unless you're grouping, you're going slow.

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ACGIFT wrote:

It's kind of funny, a few months later, how it shows had bad GGG is at even thinking about how to approach balance. Most of their approaches are "tide level" type balance changes: they change how the game is for EVERYONE until the extreme, imbalanced sect is brought into what they expect... While they drown everyone else.

• CoC Dischargers overpowered? Let's just apply nerfs to all CoC, and not touch Discharge.

Funny thing is that for the above nerfs? The "OP" playstyles never really went out of style. Cyclone+CoC+Discharge is as cancerous as ever, Sparkers are still a top-tier build, and now Gorge/Plateau rotations are even MORE mandatory than they ever were.

It just baffles me that GGG never really bothers to stop and try to think of a way to "surgically" balance, in a way that only really impacts the offending playstyles without obliterating the game for the other >99% of the playerbase, and in one way or another, also punishing players that try any mix of solo/self-found.

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ACGIFT wrote:

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ACGIFT wrote:

a single fast-clearer can empty a map in 6-10 minutes (depending on layout)

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ACGIFT wrote:

If there was simply an Experience tax for grouping at level 90+, that "hit 100 quickly" would happen a lot less.

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Zrevnur wrote:

Dont know where you got this number from but it is probably closer to 2-x minutes - depending on layout and population.

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Zrevnur wrote:

I dont actually disagree with doing something like that. But it wont fix the problem. Anybody with unlimited access to Gorge and a "max speed at Gorge" build can still get 2x the XP/h of a solo player with the same skill and dedication at playing the game (but no unlimited Gorges).

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Zrevnur wrote:

The only way to get a fair playing field is SSF.

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Zrevnur wrote:

Fixing the map system would help a lot though. And it would be easy for for GGG to do that. One thing would be to add implicits to map layouts. Like "150% more XP on a full solo clear" for Underground River. [This should be balanced by overall nerfs obviously. I do not want to campaign for more power creep.]

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ACGIFT wrote:

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Zrevnur wrote:

Dont know where you got this number from but it is probably closer to 2-x minutes - depending on layout and population.

It's my observation for most actual recorded solo clears. 2-ish minutes is only possible with a specialized clear group. (Read: have an aurabot, multiple people to spread out and stagger their offense for maximum net clear speed) If you'd like to see some descriptive examples and proof of such timing (including recorded video!) take a look at this breakdown on Reddit.

Solo clear times are a bit like penis sizes; on the Internet every guy states something more impressive than the truth. My main has easily some of the fastest clears possible, (owing to sufficient offense to one-shot packs AND higher movespeed than almost any character in the game) and typical clears for (non-Gorge) are about 7-9 minutes until 0 or 1 monster remains.

Gorge is slightly faster than other maps while solo; about 5-6 minutes. In solo play, the speed advantage of it is less pronounced than it is for group play, simply because its simpler nature makes it far, FAR more plausible to handle fast group-clear mechanics

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ACGIFT wrote:

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Zrevnur wrote:

I dont actually disagree with doing something like that. But it wont fix the problem. Anybody with unlimited access to Gorge and a "max speed at Gorge" build can still get 2x the XP/h of a solo player with the same skill and dedication at playing the game (but no unlimited Gorges).

This part is actually quite overstated. While EXP/hour is still faster on Gorge, the extra increase is less pronounced; at most it's only around 50% faster than some of the slowest maps, and closer to only a 10-25% faster than the next best things while solo; at level 92, for instance, I'm hitting 20-30M/hr on Gorge (mostly dependent on the amount of packsize and RNG) while I can pretty consistently hit 18-20M/hr on higher-level maps, sometimes even without packsize.

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ACGIFT wrote:

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Zrevnur wrote:

The only way to get a fair playing field is SSF.

And you DO realize that not everyone wants that, right? Hard-enforcing a meta is what drives players away, much like how people are alienated by mandatory group rotations to get anywhere in what passes for the endgame, especially with the

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ACGIFT wrote:

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Zrevnur wrote:

Dont know where you got this number from but it is probably closer to 2-x minutes - depending on layout and population.

It's my observation for most actual recorded solo clears. 2-ish minutes is only possible with a specialized clear group. (Read: have an aurabot, multiple people to spread out and stagger their offense for maximum net clear speed) If you'd like to see some descriptive examples and proof of such timing (including recorded video!) take a look at this breakdown on Reddit.

Solo clear times are a bit like penis sizes; on the Internet every guy states something more impressive than the truth. My main has easily some of the fastest clears possible, (owing to sufficient offense to one-shot packs AND higher movespeed than almost any character in the game) and typical clears for (non-Gorge) are about 7-9 minutes until 0 or 1 monster remains.

Gorge is slightly faster than other maps while solo; about 5-6 minutes. In solo play, the speed advantage of it is less pronounced than it is for group play, simply because its simpler nature makes it far, FAR more plausible to handle fast group-clear mechanics

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Jentry wrote:

I mapped as support this league with a few of the top 5 PSC players to hit 100. While I understand and agree with the stimulus which Chris & GGG have for these exp changes, I advocate that the chosen methodology of implementation has exacerbated disincentives to running endgame challenging content, and has reinforced the pervasively growing speed mapping meta which detracts from the fun, challenge, and loot of the highest tier map content in Path of Exile.

In PSC, and progressively for a number of development cycles since the overhaul of map modifiers, the players I see successfully pushing the ladder are speed running mid tier maps (Tier 9-12) in lieu of playing content appropriate for their ability.

I think it is critical to expound upon what I mean by "Speed Running" because it is a playstyle that I only observe in this tiny niche of the POE community. Builds, groups, and Map Rolling revolve around the ability to one shot every monster in the chosen tier of maps, the vast majority of loot is disabled and ignored, and there is significant priority given to sustaining obscenely high Movement Speed.

The gravitation towards this Movespeed=Clearspeed, nodowntimeinstapopmapaftermapinonehideout, playstyle is Phrenetic. For me it has detracted a good deal from the depth and enrichment of what Path of Exile once was because this "Efficiency Mapping" incentives players to actively ignore many aspects of the Game Design and map in Cliques or small groups of like minded players, or Solo in this style to achieve ladder position.

While there has always been a no-life element to the POE ladder, these changes further skew towards the extreme.

I do not fault the players for adapting, responding, to the GGG changes in this fashion. As Chris and GGG has pointed out many times, the playerbase, even in the absence of "Access to Information" on many of the mathematical fine points of the game, the players are becoming ever more efficient at MinMaxing their builds and their playstyle.

The tier 9-12 maps are sustainable indefinitely with minimal currency investment and can be run at max speed with negligible risk to grind exp. Higher tier maps are not sustainable and require currency investment that doesn't return maps or appropriate reward to the risk and differential time it takes to run them (except maybe for the first week of the league). The risks in the highest end maps often appear in Spiky forms, and are not a elegant counterbalance to play skill but rather a direct developer response to expected meta and playstyle.

As more and more players and groups gravitate to this playstyle, they also withdraw, in my experience, from the broader community, trading, crafting, social aspect of POE. The SpeedMapping meta being sustainable as a solo playstyle or clique playstyle supports a narrow band focus on the "Game". It is so much more efficient at accomplishing the niche goal of pushing the ladder that traditional mapping feels slow and wasteful. It is more difficult to make new friends to play with as the lightspeed jump from normal mapping to "SpeedMapping" is very jarring for new players, or longtime players who have never pushed ladder in this fashion. This, by design, has created a, barrier to entry, a monumental disincentive to players who consider jumping into the ladder race.

Basically, what I am arguing here, is to push the ladder these days, you either have to go it alone, or conform to the very narrow and xenophobic speed meta, and it just instantly trashes so much of the richness and depth of an awesome game and encourages elitism as a zeitgeist. I don't think it is healthy or sustainable for the long term of the community.

VOC