The Labyrinth is great content

... for an offline game.

Mark (both), Qarl, Chris, Jonathan... I appreciate the effort and idea as well as the fact you guys are constantly looking for new, fun ways to refresh the game.
to push the boundaries and introduce stuff which bring new ways of playing.

however you really do need to consider the technical limitations: this is an online game, where a player's experience greatly varies depending on distance from a server, load on the server, connection quality, hardware...

dodging traps and timing one's moves is great and I love it. and actually it's not even the first time this is done in an ARPG.
but it is the first time this is done in an online ARPG where half a billion things can go wrong which are not player error.

I'm an old-timer in the game at this point, and it really takes me back to playing the first seasons of Racing when Desync was high and mighty, and stability wasn't too good to say the least.
takes me back to loading into Normal Barracks in Piety-realm Act 3, to find - after 15 painful minutes of loading screen - my HC character dead at the hands of one rogue Blackguard standing near the entrance. still picture with a "resurrect in town" button before the game crashed.

memories of great features and ideas limited by this game being what it is.

Labyrinth brings them all back.

TBH, the Uber trials are the only content currently in game that will make you sweat, without the use of one-shot / burst damage / gear-check mechanics. They are nicely hard, at least until you remember the layouts.

But for that you need a good connection, true. Back in the days of desync, this content wouldn't be possible, not even for peope with good internet connections. But now it's possible, at least for the majority of us.

Some people say PoE is "hardcore" because it has a lot of grind. Grind and RNG is not hardcore. You can grind in easy zones and parties, where it's impossible to die (LFM Gorge/Plateau/Springs rota). And RNG is not "hard" or "easy", just random. Ironically the Labyrinth IS a hardcore gameplay addition.

So, I'm a bit torn. On one hand, point-click puzzle / traps feel kind off in an (online) ARPG and requires good connection. On the other, the Lab is the most hardcore thing you can find in this super-easy PoE version 2.3. Gameplay-wise.

Maybe we all need to learn how to stop worrying and love the Lab? :p

I was never worried since i am a pro mario player.


Lab and trials are commonly hated in hardcore and by most "true" arpg fans.

I think the lab is a great addition, but thank god you only have to do it twice to get the really juicy stuff. It seems just about right. Time investment, difficulty, player skill requirements, they're all low enough for any half-decent and half-dedicated player to not despair over.
And the subsequent points, beyond the first four, especially the last two, are for the truly dedicated min-max players, which also seems just about right.

But you're right, in an always online game it's a bit evil. But what else could there be? I read a lot of fantasy and sci-fi, and whenever someone "ascends" there is always some kind of trial. You have to pass some kind of test to prove that you are worthy, and that test, facing and overcoming its obstacles, always sets the protagonist apart from everyone else, in one way or another. That's what ascension is all about. Just playing the acts does not do the trick. The way it's supposed to work, it has to be sidelined, it has to "optional", and it has to be challenging. And it has to be relatively gear-independent so as not to lock people out.

I think GGG did a great job accomplishing this. It has its downsides but the upsides prevail IMO. One thing that could be changed is to introduce one-time waypoints. That would accomodate players with unstable connections, or little time, etc.

"

Pyrokar wrote:

I was never worried since i am a pro mario player.

imagine a hard level of Mario, which you can still do as a seasoned player... only it is running on a remote server somewhere so your inputs may potentially not register in time \ take a couple extra crucial milliseconds.

also, you have only one life - and if the game crashes or logs out for whatever reason, that still counts.

that's how I feel about content such as The Labyrinth and Trials: I can do it, as long as it is running locally on my PC.

if you ever played Torchlight 2 you'll understand when I say "2nd Djinn Trial", on Hardcore Elite... where every trap pretty much kills you instantly, and there are a lot of traps.
Act 2 as a whole had too many traps.
but I beat it. in Single Player (then proceeded to beat the game. god that final boss hits hard in Elite).

I never could when playing with friends and had to either play a less punishing mode, SC, or both.

keep in mind I now play PoE on a pretty modern machine with an SSD and all that jazz.
not comparable to the good old Open Beta potato.
yet still content which requires pin-point precision, in an online setting where such precision can never realistically be achieved 100% of the time - does not belong, in my opinion.

@Morbo, completely agree this is true "hardcore".
certainly more hardcore than RNG-layering and repeat-grinding Docks/Fellshrine/Catacombs/Piety/Voll can ever be.
but while it's true Lab was never an option during the age of desync... it still isn't an option today, because in an online setting - even with no desync and a great JK PC day with minimal lagging/freezing - stuff can still happen.
stuff happening and pin-point accuracy, simply do not mix.

Dear GGG, I've never had problems and really like the lab as it is!

Please consider the possibility that there's just a vocal minority regarding the difficulty level before nerfing the lab.

"

morbo wrote:

TBH, the Uber trials are the only content currently in game that will make you sweat, without the use of one-shot / burst damage / gear-check mechanics. They are nicely hard, at least until you remember the layouts.

But for that you need a good connection, true. Back in the days of desync, this content wouldn't be possible, not even for peope with good internet connections. But now it's possible, at least for the majority of us.

Some people say PoE is "hardcore" because it has a lot of grind. Grind and RNG is not hardcore. You can grind in easy zones and parties, where it's impossible to die (LFM Gorge/Plateau/Springs rota). And RNG is not "hard" or "easy", just random. Ironically the Labyrinth IS a hardcore gameplay addition.

So, I'm a bit torn. On one hand, point-click puzzle / traps feel kind off in an (online) ARPG and requires good connection. On the other, the Lab is the most hardcore thing you can find in this super-easy PoE version 2.3. Gameplay-wise.

Maybe we all need to learn how to stop worrying and love the Lab? :p

And Plaza boss. Seriously, do GMP Plaza boss if you havent already. Youll be laughing in masochistic tears when you do. It was soo fun but soo scary when i did it (i died because rip mods).

Pale Council boss fight was almost there, its got good mechanics though but i feel the loot in there is just too good for the fight. Fight is just a bit too easy for the Pale Council but its probably my favorite fight right now mechanically speaking.

I think what people need to do who dislike it, take a break from the forums and just enjoy the game. Stop being soo negative and just play the game.

If you need run through Labyrinth for points there are plenty of people willing to help. I have no issue with running people through Merciless when im not busy. I certainly wont have a problem giving free carries when i start to farm the uber labyrinth.

"

Benep wrote:

Please consider the possibility that there's just a vocal minority regarding the difficulty level before nerfing the lab.

They can't "nerf" the Lab, without making it irrelevant / a cakewalk, at which point they might as well remove it entirely.

Even the Uber Lab isn't that Uber, because of insane power creep and because you can skip most puzzles. You maybe have to do 1 puzzle, or two if there's a golden door.

Anyway, I'm siting at 30ms with godly internet connection and cant realy blame anything, but my mistakes for failing the Lab run. Even tho I have issues with framerate drops on Izaro fight. The Lab also DC-ed only once or twice for me, and that was in the previous league, PHC.

But I do understand some people have also issues with the connection, besides FPS issues. As Jojas said those 4 points (which are quite powerful already), can be done relatively easily if you overlevel. Merc is a bit harder and Uber is for min-maxers. Characters with high life regen & armor are much easier to ascend, because you can make many more mistakes, than no-regen / hybrid chars.

Personally, I'd put Asc points behind an "endless" dungeon, with many boss fights, no TP-ing, solo-only, bare-naked race style start, timed even... but no trap gauntlets.

"

Tin_Foil_Hat wrote:

And Plaza boss. Seriously, do GMP Plaza boss if you havent already. Youll be laughing in masochistic tears when you do. It was soo fun but soo scary when i did it (i died because rip mods).

I've run only 1 Plaza and it spawned that 36 strongbox prophecy. I went to the boss on my last TP (too much swag to haul out), and it kicked my ass before I could understand wtf is going on. :)

Will check again later...

The Pale Council is also an interesting fight, but too easy, yeah.

"

Benep wrote:

Dear GGG, I've never had problems and really like the lab as it is!

Please consider the possibility that there's just a vocal minority regarding the difficulty level before nerfing the lab.

to clarify: this is not a "nerf Labyrinth" thread.

this thread, is about the relevance of content like Labyrinth in an online-based ARPG Path Of Exile.

in part, I dislike the fact it is integrated into the core game.
meaning you have to go through it to Ascend your character as part of his/her building process.
but as a whole I think it simply does not belong, even if it was a completely and utterly optional loot-based-side-area thing.

@Tin, tell me the name of one player - in the entire universe - who enjoys being carried by others. a.k.a just standing and watching someone else beat content.
this is not gameplay, in my view. a "strategy" yes, but not gameplay.
gameplay is you beating your own challenges, and if you are confident enough then also helping others beat theirs without "carrying" them. meaning they co-op and don't just stand there while you do everything.


thread TL;DR - make PoE capable of running offline, or find a good alternative. stop using mechanics which require extreme accuracy and reflexes, in a setting where packets - not actual player mouse fingers - ultimately matter most.